Help with Highview Parking Charge Notice

Carthesis

Looks good to me.

Umkomaas

Carthesis wrote: »

Looks good to me.

I agree.

it is reasonable to say that the remaining 4 minutes of the overstay be covered by the ‘Grace Period’ detailed in Section 13.2. whilst looking for a parking space.

I would however, just tidy this up a bit by being more specific that the time taken to find a parking spot (and do all the necessary) was at least 4 minutes, and probably more. I wouldn't crop it so fine as to leave exactly 10 minutes at the end.

So if the front end took 6 minutes, then the period to leave the site was 8 minutes and well within the minimum 10 minute grace period. You need to specify both ends in my opinion.

Carthesis

Umkomaas wrote: »

I agree.

I would however, just tidy this up a bit by being more specific ...

Well spotted.

You perhaps don't need to be explicit - just explain that you don't consider it is unreasonable that the time taken from passing the ANPR camera at some arbitrary entrance to finding a space, parking, finding a sign, reading a sign, considering a sign and agreeing to park could easily be up to 10 minutes in total (if not more if the car park is busy), and that similarly the "minimum" 10 minute grace period is just that, because it depends on how busy both the car park and the site access roads are as to how long it take to get out of the space and back past the ANPR camera at some arbitrary exit, which for various reasons might not be the one closest to where you parked (i.e., comedy one-way system taking you out of your way; being closer to the route needed to get back to your house etc.)

Hence, you therefore consider a total grace period of 20 minutes as a minimum to be not unreasonable, which clearly you have not exceeded, and that anyway that grace period is only to be applied to the period of "parking" and not the total time spent within the area controlled and monitored by ANPR, which is not the same thing.

Castle

And don't forget to mention that driving around looking for a parking spot is not parking:-Parkingeye v Mrs X
http://www.parking-prankster.com/case-law.html

carcuscrae

Ok will do.

I'll post that section again once tidied up for your approval

I really appreciate all the help you have given

Thanks

Umkomaas

Castle wrote: »

And don't forget to mention that driving around looking for a parking spot is not parking:-Parkingeye v Mrs X
http://www.parking-prankster.com/case-law.html

And 'parking' was further clarified by HHJ Harris QC in the Jopson -v- Homeguard Appeal case.

http://nebula.wsimg.com/f6d657adf7df70d27e1dd285688b5701?AccessKeyId=4CB8F2392A09CF228A46&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Coupon-mad

And I would add Carthesis' link and quote from Kelvin Reynolds of the BPA which was a good find. Needs to be in with the Grace Periods section.

I feel another template coming on which will be based on your final effort for that appeal point!

Have that link and quote in there to support the view that there ARE two distinct periods (not just ten minutes, which after all is not a maximum but a minimum) and the first few minutes can be described as the 'observation period' and even the BPA's Director of Policy has confirmed these are two periods, not one (give the link Carthesis found).

Highview will scuttle away when they see this - and yes, you have the POFA section right; 9(2)(f) is the vital one, no others matter if that's not there!

carcuscrae

Ok everyone, here is my updated section 4 of my appeal. How does this sound?

4. The operator has not allowed a sufficient ‘Grace Period’ for entry to and exit from the car park - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice.

The operator has not fully complied with Section 13 of the BPA Approved Operator Scheme Code of Practice, namely the provision of ‘Grace Periods’.

http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS_Code_of_Practice_October_2015_update_V6..pdf

13 Grace periods

13.1 Your approach to parking management must allow a driver who enters your car park but decides not to park, to leave the car park within a reasonable period without having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.

13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.

13.3 You should be prepared to tell us the specific grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is.

13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.

There are, effectively, two grace periods. The first one, as detailed in Section 13.2, covers entering the car park, finding a parking space, walking to and observing any signs and deciding whether to accept/comply with the operator’s terms or deciding to drive away. The period of parking commences at the end of this period. This is clearly defined by Kelvin Reynolds of the BPA in the following press release in which he states

“The BPA’s guidance specifically says that there must be sufficient time for the motorist to park their car, observe the signs, decide whether they want to comply with the operator’s conditions and either drive away or pay for a ticket”.

http://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods

The second ‘Grace Period’, as detailed in Section 13.4, covers leaving the car park and clearly states there is a MINIMUM of 10 minutes to leave.

The operators PCN claims an overstay of 14 minutes and I feel I must raise the point that "recorded stay" is not the same as "time parked", as it does not take into account time spent looking for a parking space nor queuing to exit. Further clarification of what is deemed as parking can be found in the following two cases:-

Parking Eye v Mrs X – which stated that driving around looking for a parking space is not the same as parking

http://nebula.wsimg.com/c289944f81b4afb375a97d05d5a80df6?AccessKeyId=4CB8F2392A09CF228A46&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Jopson v Homeguard Services Limited

http://nebula.wsimg.com/f6d657adf7df70d27e1dd285688b5701?AccessKeyId=4CB8F2392A09CF228A46&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

As Section 13.4 determines a reasonable ‘Grace Period’ for leaving the car park should be a MINIMUM of 10 minutes, it is reasonable to say that the ‘Grace Period’ for entering a car park, as detailed in Section 13.2, then finding a parking space, walking to and observing any signs and deciding whether to accept/comply with the operator’s terms would easily take the same amount of time. Thus a total ‘Grace Period’ for a car park stay should be determined as a MINIMUM of 20 minutes, 10 minutes at the start and 10 minutes at the end. In this case the overstay claimed was 14 minutes, well within the allowed ‘Grace Periods’.

Carthesis

You may well also get a site map from them showing the locations of the cameras and signs as well. If you do then keep hold of it, just in case they decide that you're the first person ever they decide to (very foolishly) take to court (99.999% they won't).

It'd be interesting to see the layout of the car park and where the cameras are placed, specifically how many entrances and exits there are, and how far the cameras at those locations are from the first parking space (i.e. long internal link roads, one-way system etc.).

carcuscrae

Carthesis wrote: »

You may well also get a site map from them showing the locations of the cameras and signs as well. If you do then keep hold of it, just in case they decide that you're the first person ever they decide to (very foolishly) take to court (99.999% they won't).

It'd be interesting to see the layout of the car park and where the cameras are placed, specifically how many entrances and exits there are, and how far the cameras at those locations are from the first parking space (i.e. long internal link roads, one-way system etc.).

Who do I ask to get that from?