Autumn statement - November the 23rd

CLAPTON

BobQ wrote: »

Poor wages is what happens when people do not join unions and argue their case.

poor wages happen when there is more demand for jobs that there are jobs
or where the jobs are low value jobs only producing small return.

Detroit is a good example of strong unions.

padington

CLAPTON wrote: »

foreign aid only helps keeps the corrupt and dictatorial in power

You my friend would prefer to give all those chumps a complete free trade deal, so let's not start getting sanctimonious about dictatorships.

CLAPTON

padington wrote: »

You my friend would prefer to give all those chumps a complete free trade deal, so let's not start getting sanctimonious about dictatorships.

I believe that trade is mutually beneficial. We aren't 'giving' them anything : we are bring benefits to the people of the Uk and we bring benefits to the people we trade with in the foreign countries.
Most trade is between two parties and NOT between two governments .

I do indeed think that normal trade and the interactions between the peoples of the countries helps both economically but also brings corrupt and dysfunctional peoples into the world economic system. It also stimulates businesses and provides employment.

I believe that aid, is mainly syphoned off into the ruling elite and army and does little or no good to the people.

I'm quite surprised you favour aid to trade.

Conrad

padington wrote: »

You my friend would prefer to give all those chumps a complete free trade deal, so let's not start getting sanctimonious about dictatorships.

A free trade deal with for example Ghana would help farmers there to export to us, rather than be frozen out by Customs Union barriers, (tomato growers there have been put out of business by subsidised EU tomatoes)


Of course trade is better than aid. Aid implies racism - the great white man infantilising millions of Africans, and of course despite trillions in aid, it's been hugely ineffectual. Lenny Henry jumping up and down by a well does not a nation make.


S Korea and Malaysia largely declined the aid on offer, and yet both pulled themselves up in the last 5 decades through trade. This method of social improvement doesn't give white middle class people many virtue signalling opportunities though....

Silvertabby

“ Poor wages is what happens when people do not join unions and argue their case.

Originally posted by BobQ ”

poor wages happen when there is more demand for jobs that there are jobs
or where the jobs are low value jobs only producing small return.

Detroit is a good example of strong unions.

And Britain in the 1970s

westernpromise

autumn2012 wrote: »

No I would prefer this:

A 21yr old getting paid the same as a 25yr old for doing the same job
Corporations to start paying a decent wage with decent rights to their staff and their taxes
The state pension be means tested as some pensioners are incredibly wealthy and also that ex pats dont travel back the uk just to cash their pensions and get their health sorted out.

A fairer society for all not just the group that mostly vote Tory

What's "fairer" about any of what you've listed?

padington

Conrad wrote: »

A free trade deal with for example Ghana would help farmers there to export to us, rather than be frozen out by Customs Union barriers, (tomato growers there have been put out of business by subsidised EU tomatoes)


Of course trade is better than aid. Aid implies racism - the great white man infantilising millions of Africans, and of course despite trillions in aid, it's been hugely ineffectual. Lenny Henry jumping up and down by a well does not a nation make.


S Korea and Malaysia largely declined the aid on offer, and yet both pulled themselves up in the last 5 decades through trade. This method of social improvement doesn't give white middle class people many virtue signalling opportunities though....

I'm talking about stupidity of offering dictatorships the same terms as one would to fellow democracies ( black or white).

Moto2

padington wrote: »

I'm talking about stupidity of offering dictatorships the same terms as one would to fellow democracies ( black or white).

You mean like Saudi Arabia?

padington

Moto2 wrote: »

You mean like Saudi Arabia?

Yep, that's pretty stupid, their needs to be a union of free trading reasonable democracies to incentivise good governance.

CLAPTON

padington wrote: »

Yep, that's pretty stupid, their needs to be a union of free trading reasonable democracies to incentivise good governance.

I do in principle agree that there are some circumstances where boycott or trade restrictions might be an effective way of changing state governance. Just as sending a gun boat can be effective too.

However that is not always effect : was the US blockage of Cuba effective?
China, whilst still a dictorship is far more open and subject to influence now where there is plenty of trade than it was formally as a closed state.

In many situations trade is an effective, if slow method of improving peoples standard of living which often leads to better government.

In my view, only in pretty extreme circumstance, should we make the children suffer severely for the sins of their parents.

My overall view is we should trade where-ever possible.