Is Hilary to blame or the Democrats for choosing her

TrickyTree83

stator wrote: »

By 'co-operation' I pressume you mean the west sitting by and allowing Russia to invade/interfere with any country it likes?

Trump may not be a fascist but Putin certainly is. He's been trying to recreate Russian power abroad and resurrect the Soviet Union. He's willing to work with any dictator/genocidal maniac/war criminal, as long as they are allied to Russia. This includes the current regimes in Syria and Turkey and most of caucasia. He cares nothing for human lives, democracy or freedom. All he cares about it making "Russian Great Again". If Trump adopts the policy of 'let Russia do what it wants, it doesn't affect us' you will start to see Russia interfering in all the former Soviet states and some more. Expect lots of corruption, extra judicial killings, media manipulation etc etc
If I lived in Eastern Europe or Caucasia I would be seriously looking at moving.

My wife is Ukrainian, my in-laws are, I have friends who are as a consequence.

None of them identify with the narrative you and the west are trying to portray. They disagree with what happened during Maidan, rather than oust the then president the general consensus is that they should have waited for the elections to take place. Maidan which was sponsored by EU and US funded NGO's in Ukraine caused the mess we currently have in Ukraine.

Don't believe everything the Western mass media tell you even if they are the megaphone for the supposedly "liberal" left.

For example on my most recent visit, in September 2016, I came across militia groups wandering/patrolling the streets. Dressed all in green military uniform (not camo), with what appear to be US issue army caps, truncheons, military boots, skin heads, making sure you comply with their world view and generally keeping their version of peace. Have you heard of Right Sector, Aidar, Azov, etc..? We then travelled from Mykolaiv which is where I experienced this to a place called Zatoka, I suppose you could call it a beach resort, not one a British citizen would recognise as a beach resort though. There we had Right Sector, dressed all in black with red berets guarding the local police station with a group of 20 or so people outside shouting at them.

It's one thing to hear about it and a very different thing to experience it first person.

stator

What's the point of waiting for an election that is rigged by Russia?
It can all be traced back to the Russian interference into an open and free trade agreement that Ukraine and the EU were negotiating.
How much of your family is really Russian ?

westernpromise

stator wrote: »

Hilary won the popular vote. It was the rigged election system that chose Donald J Trump

If the Democrats objected to the electoral system, the time to object was before the election. To wait until afterwards makes it look like they'd be happy to accept the "rigged" result as long as it was the one they wanted.

The Democrats need to ask themselves why they were so complacent and so disconnected from everyday America as to have picked such an appalling candidate - perhaps the only person in the country whom Trump could beat.

cogito

stator wrote: »

Hilary won the popular vote. It was the rigged election system that chose Donald J Trump

That will be the same rigged system that has given Labour an advantage in the UK?

TrickyTree83

stator wrote: »

What's the point of waiting for an election that is rigged by Russia?
It can all be traced back to the Russian interference into an open and free trade agreement that Ukraine and the EU were negotiating.
How much of your family is really Russian ?

The government in Ukraine at the time when the EU treaty was to be signed was corrupt, yes. Maidan was not the answer and it all tracks back to that. Peaceful protest would have been enough, but a coup and the ousting of an elected president caused the situation we see now. Not the preference for close ties with Russia from the government at the time.

What do you think Ukrainians would say if you asked them if their lives were better now, closer to the EU and the US or if they were better before Maidan closer to Russia? I know the answer from those I know living there.

The elections were not rigged by Russia, my wife used to work in the electoral offices as a vote counter before she moved here. It seems you believe a lot of Western spin, the media is as corrupt here as it is elsewhere in the world with a few exceptions. Delivering the truth they want you to see on a daily basis through their prism.

My wife is Ukrainian, native Russian speaker from the south of the country from a city called Mykolaiv (Nikolaev). Her parents, mother is from Cherkassy, in the centre-ish just south and east of Kiev and her father, originally born in Mykolaiv in the south holds a Russian passport issued during the USSR, both are native Russian speakers. They see themselves as Ukrainians that speak Russian. This whole thing has torn families apart, caused deaths of thousands and continues to stifle the economy of Ukriane where their pensioners have seen real welfare cutbacks the like of which would cause riots in this country.

Edit: Last December we travelled to a place called Bukovel, quite a nice ski resort in the north west of the country, to the south west of Ivano-Frankivsk, there too they dislike what has happened in the country despite being native Ukrainian speakers in the West/North-West and where the "typical" support for the pro-EU/pro-US coup and current government is supposed to be based. Realistically this fanaticism for the coup is only maintained through militia groups, the military and the puppet government that is now in place (thanks to Nuland & co.).

Right Sector: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector
Aidar Battalion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aidar_Battalion
Azov Battalion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

vivatifosi

westernpromise wrote: »

If the Democrats objected to the electoral system, the time to object was before the election. To wait until afterwards makes it look like they'd be happy to accept the "rigged" result as long as it was the one they wanted.

Given that the same thing happened during Bush vs Gore, I am surprised they hadn't already asked. Having said that, a lot of how this works was designed by the founding fathers, so I'm not sure what appetite there is for tinkering.

stator

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

The government in Ukraine at the time when the EU treaty was to be signed was corrupt, yes. Maidan was not the answer and it all tracks back to that. Peaceful protest would have been enough, but a coup and the ousting of an elected president caused the situation we see now. Not the preference for close ties with Russia from the government at the time.

What do you think Ukrainians would say if you asked them if their lives were better now, closer to the EU and the US or if they were better before Maidan closer to Russia? I know the answer from those I know living there.

The elections were not rigged by Russia, my wife used to work in the electoral offices as a vote counter before she moved here. It seems you believe a lot of Western spin, the media is as corrupt here as it is elsewhere in the world with a few exceptions. Delivering the truth they want you to see on a daily basis through their prism.

My wife is Ukrainian, native Russian speaker from the south of the country from a city called Mykolaiv (Nikolaev). Her parents, mother is from Cherkassy, in the centre-ish just south and east of Kiev and her father, originally born in Mykolaiv in the south holds a Russian passport issued during the USSR, both are native Russian speakers. They see themselves as Ukrainians that speak Russian. This whole thing has torn families apart, caused deaths of thousands and continues to stifle the economy of Ukriane where their pensioners have seen real welfare cutbacks the like of which would cause riots in this country.

Edit: Last December we travelled to a place called Bukovel, quite a nice ski resort in the north west of the country, to the south west of Ivano-Frankivsk, there too they dislike what has happened in the country despite being native Ukrainian speakers in the West/North-West and where the "typical" support for the pro-EU/pro-US coup and current government is supposed to be based. Realistically this fanaticism for the coup is only maintained through militia groups, the military and the puppet government that is now in place (thanks to Nuland & co.).

Right Sector: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector
Aidar Battalion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aidar_Battalion
Azov Battalion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

It's worry how much of your propoganda you seem to actually believe.
The EU/US had nothing to do with the protests which were supported extremely well in the west of Ukraine and by a slim majority of the overall population. The Russians are the ones who annexed Crimea, but that wasn't enough for them, so they flooded eastern Ukraine with 'unofficial' Russian militias in an attempt to gain even more territory. Everything flows from that militarisation.
The chaos right now is entirely Putin's fault.

Mr.Generous

think Trump would have lost against a chimp, Hillary can stand tall and proudly claim to be just about the only candidate in the world who would be pushed into second place by the Trumpmeister.

TrickyTree83

stator wrote: »

It's worry how much of your propoganda you seem to actually believe.
The EU/US had nothing to do with the protests which were supported extremely well in the west of Ukraine and by a slim majority of the overall population. The Russians are the ones who annexed Crimea, but that wasn't enough for them, so they flooded eastern Ukraine with 'unofficial' Russian militias in an attempt to gain even more territory. Everything flows from that militarisation.
The chaos right now is entirely Putin's fault.

What I wrote isn't propaganda, it's how it happened.

I was travelling there even at the height of the conflict, it was and remains a topic I'm quite well versed in as it affects me and my family directly.

Whilst I agree the Russian Federation did violate the Budapest Memorandum it was due to the high concentration of Russian citizens as opposed to Ukrainian citizens who lived in the area who were at risk of being overrun by these militias.

I can forgive you for not knowing the actual situation in the country since the media here don't really report on what the "good guys" really look like, just Russia = bad, constantly. When there are neo-nazi militias overtaking your country after a coup and threatening to ban your language from the country, a fascist trait, you would probably rise up against that too. It didn't start out as a military conflict, the Ukrainian government, the puppet government, rolled into the east with military hardware. Only the far east of Ukraine picked up weapons to fight back against this being forced upon them. When it was evident that the separatists in the east would lose and be subjected to a crackdown Russia stepped in. I don't condone or support any of it, but it is a result of the Maidan coup which was orchestrated by the militias. The EU and the US are complicit in the orchestration of the Maidan and the creation of the government post-coup.

It has nothing to do with territory, and everything to do with the persecution of the people that live there. Testament to this fact is my anecdotal evidence of the militias now roaming around the cities in the south, large groups of young white men with shaved heads. Not in any official capacity or with any official power, a blind eye turned to their activities, a neo-nazi crackdown on the Russian speakers for fear they too might not want to be governed by EU and US puppets in a proxy fight with Russia over essentially nothing but ego.

If you fail to believe me about the neo-nazi connections, read up about the militias, Right Sector/Sektor in particular, and their beliefs on, you could say worship of, Stepan Bandera.

The chaos right now is entirely the fault of these militas and the people who supported them and aided them to take power. No one else, the Russian involvement was a reaction, not a provocation.

[Deleted User]

stator wrote: »

Hilary won the popular vote. It was the rigged election system that chose Donald J Trump

47.7% / 47.5% (so far) I believe. That's the way the electoral system works over there. Reminds me of when Al Gore got more votes than Bush, but guess who ended up as president?

Maybe Al was too sincere and honest.