Care home fees for self funders

Gavin83

AylesburyDuck wrote: »

Can i ask why self funded? If dementia is diagnosed then surely NHS continuity of care takes over fees.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/dementia-guide/Pages/dementia-and-social-services.aspx

I see nothing in that link that states the NHS will cover the care home fees for someone with dementia.

Spendless

Gavin83 wrote: »

This won't apply to self funders, only people funded via a council rate. It's to make up the difference between the council rate and what the care home want for the placement.

As a side note I'd make sure she's claiming attendance allowance. As a self funder she'll be entitled to it.

My Grandmother is a self-funder. She owned a property. My parents still were told they had to pay the third party top up fees and she couldn't pay them herself.

Gavin83

Spendless wrote: »

My Grandmother is a self-funder. She owned a property. My parents still were told they had to pay the third party top up fees and she couldn't pay them herself.

Who told you this? Did the council contribute anything at all at the start of the placement?

fred246

Thanks for all the helpful replies. The website that seems to be most useful is:
http://www.valuingcarefm.com/
The care home comes out as not value for money. They would have to reduce their fee by £90 a week for it to be value for money. They will negotiate on your behalf for £480 but will not guarantee anything. I am pretty sure the home is nearly always full so negotiation may be hard. The difficult part I think is that the person who earned all the money was so careful. I sort of feel I am just throwing it away if I pay the full price. However I want to just pay it for a less stressful existence.
I still need to apply for the benefits. I had another relative who got CHC so I know all the questions and I don't think she has a chance with that.

Spendless

Gavin83 wrote: »

Who told you this? Did the council contribute anything at all at the start of the placement?

My Grandmother went from hospital to a residential NHS assessment centre for about 6 weeks. My parents were asked to attend a meeting with the staff, I think this might have included social worker/s (but I'm not sure). My Mum had at this stage started looking at care homes and seen one she really liked. When she mentioned it at the meeting, she was told that there would be third party top up fees to be paid and they couldn't be paid by my Grandmother. They had to be paid by a 'third party'. My parents couldn't afford it, they are pensioners themselves (though both still working part-time). The only other family members who could contribute is me and my husband and we couldn't afford it either, as we have school-aged children and I don't have permanent work.

Mum then looked for another home, a cheaper one where the manager when asked said they didn't charge third party top up fees and that she didn't agree with them.

Nan's home was sold to pay the care home fees. Currently she is still paying as the money she received from the sale hasn't yet run out, but will do in approx 6 months time.

It is hard to know if what my parents were told was correct, because as I said in my earlier post, there is little on the net about it (that I found).

Gavin83

fred246 wrote: »

The care home comes out as not value for money. They would have to reduce their fee by £90 a week for it to be value for money. They will negotiate on your behalf for £480 but will not guarantee anything. I am pretty sure the home is nearly always full so negotiation may be hard. The difficult part I think is that the person who earned all the money was so careful. I sort of feel I am just throwing it away if I pay the full price. However I want to just pay it for a less stressful existence.

Everyone wants value for money and it's well worth attempting to negotiate. However you have to be fully prepared for them to say no.

However at the end of the day the most important thing is the happiness and we'll being of your relative. If achieving that means spending a little more than it's money well spent in my opinion.

Spendless wrote: »

My Grandmother went from hospital to a residential NHS assessment centre for about 6 weeks. My parents were asked to attend a meeting with the staff, I think this might have included social worker/s (but I'm not sure). My Mum had at this stage started looking at care homes and seen one she really liked. When she mentioned it at the meeting, she was told that there would be third party top up fees to be paid and they couldn't be paid by my Grandmother. They had to be paid by a 'third party'. My parents couldn't afford it, they are pensioners themselves (though both still working part-time). The only other family members who could contribute is me and my husband and we couldn't afford it either, as we have school-aged children and I don't have permanent work.

Mum then looked for another home, a cheaper one where the manager when asked said they didn't charge third party top up fees and that she didn't agree with them.

Nan's home was sold to pay the care home fees. Currently she is still paying as the money she received from the sale hasn't yet run out, but will do in approx 6 months time.

It is hard to know if what my parents were told was correct, because as I said in my earlier post, there is little on the net about it (that I found).

I'm assuming she had assets under the threshold but also owned a property and therefore was entitled to the councils 12 week disregard. In which case the council is partially correct in that your family would have to pay the third party top up but this would only apply for the first 12 weeks. After this point she'd be self funding and the top up fee would be included in her charge.

Sorry I realise that's probably disappointing to hear if you weren't told that at the time but that's how it works.

Spendless

Gavin83 wrote: »

I'm assuming she had assets under the threshold but also owned a property and therefore was entitled to the councils 12 week disregard. In which case the council is partially correct in that your family would have to pay the third party top up but this would only apply for the first 12 weeks. After this point she'd be self funding and the top up fee would be included in her charge.

Sorry I realise that's probably disappointing to hear if you weren't told that at the time but that's how it works.

I don't know what the threshold was/is, but she had approx £8-£10K in a bank account plus owned a property. My Mum at this stage did not have PofA as my Grandmother refused to make one, so Mum didn't have access to the money. Mum got PofA a few months later after Gran agreed to it.

My parents were definatley not told it applied only during the 12 week disregard as something that was fetched up at the meeting was how the charge would go up yearly. Being pensioners themselves they didn't know how long this would go on for at a time when their income would go down (when they reduce/give up their jobs).

There is very little about it, I found, but from what you've said, wouldn't the issue of 3rd party top ups apply to any self funder whose money to fund is tied up in something that can't be accessed?

phoebe1989seb

troubleinparadise wrote: »

Whilst logically most people might think that a diagnosis of Dementia, of whatever type, should qualify a person for CHC, sadly it doesn't.

Go to the Alzheimer's Society forum to read how many people try very hard to get funding for the person they care for to receive CHC whether at home or in a care home setting. And don't get awarded it. Or have it withdrawn because in the regular assessments the PWD (person with dementia) no longer meets the requirements.

You can argue all you like - that's what is happening. And it's not for the lack of trying on behalf of the carer - or fighting, in your terminology. And that's a "fight" that has to be done usually by someone who is on their knees with the stress and exhaustion of caring for a PWD, against "the system". Please don't suggest not receiving CHC is a failing on that carer's part.

This ^

Have been there with both parents

Bogalot

fred246 wrote: »

Thanks for all the helpful replies. The website that seems to be most useful is:
http://www.valuingcarefm.com/
The care home comes out as not value for money. They would have to reduce their fee by £90 a week for it to be value for money. They will negotiate on your behalf for £480 but will not guarantee anything. I am pretty sure the home is nearly always full so negotiation may be hard. The difficult part I think is that the person who earned all the money was so careful. I sort of feel I am just throwing it away if I pay the full price. However I want to just pay it for a less stressful existence.
I still need to apply for the benefits. I had another relative who got CHC so I know all the questions and I don't think she has a chance with that.

I would run a mile from that website. They make lots of claims but they don't actually tell you who they are, what their background is to give them their apparent expertise. I tried their calculator and entered what I know to be far below average for my area, and it came back saying it was above average and they may be able to help. They strike me as little better than ambulance chasers.

(That's not to say your figure is not above average, just that I would not trust them as a point of reference.)

Bogalot

On further investigation these are the people that run that website.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/feb/02/cost-reduction-specialists-social-care-olm

The bulk of the work is on behalf of local authorities, finding ways to justify squeezing yet more cuts to their social care budgets, and at the same time charging a large fee for their services. These people are effectively the reason why you have to pay so much more.

I revise my original opinion, these people are worse than ambulance chasers.