Debt from between tenants?

scarfey88

Hello

So I'm after some advice as this is going to the Ombudsmen, and I'm not sure if I have a chance in hell.

So basically, I was moved to Germany for 18 months with work, and I decided to rent our flat out whilst I was away. The first tenant moved out after 3 months as he got a new job, and there was a 1 week gap before the new tenant moved in. I left all this to my letting agent who I was paying to fully manage the property.

Anyway, come to June this year, the tenant wasn't paying rent and so I evicted them and me and my wife moved back into the flat. The tenants had left a load of debt, but I rang and changed over all my utilities into me and my wife's name, and everything was sorted as far as I was aware. However, come to October this year, I receive a letter from a debt collection agency (LCS) claiming that I owe some money to Eon (somewhere in the region of £1400). I wasn't with Eon energy so assumed it was for the previous tenant, though I was a bit confused as to why this had taken until October to be sorted out. I sent a copy of the tenancy agreement to the debt collector and told them that the debt didn't belong to me, thinking nothing else of it. Turns out the tenant hadn't bothered changing the electricity bill over into their name.

Eon then rang me and told me that as there had been a week whereby there was no one living in the flat, despite the usage being 0, there was a £1.49 standing order that had been owed from that period. I was happy to pay that, accepting that as the owner I was responsible for that week. However, they told me that because that £1.49 had gone to a debt collection agency, fees had been added and that I now owed £400. This was for a debt that I had no idea existed or that I owed anything. I asked Eon when they had told me about this debt, and they told me that as they didn't know who lived at the property, they had been writing to 'the occupier'. Now the confusing bit is that the debt collection agency had written to me personally, so they somehow now had my name, having not had it before (evidently it took them almost 18 months to get my name and tell me about the debt). Now I told them that I was in Germany at the time, and therefore I wasn't the occupier, so wouldn't have received any bills. Also, they hadn't actually written any demands letters until January 2016, though they had sent someone to the property to change the meter from a credit meter to a prepayment meter in October 2015. What's annoying is that to get access to the property, they had spoken to the tenants who owed the money, yet still didn't put their name to any of the bills! Me, being in Germany, remained oblivious to all of this.

My argument is that the charge is entirely disproportionate, and that at no point was I made aware that any bill was owed. Eon are claiming they have done nothing wrong and that I owe the money, so I'm now awaiting the Ombudsmen. I just can't believe that Eon have been allowed to do this!

G_M

Now tell us all that again, but without the verbage and with precise facts - particularly dates of tenancies etc.

But I'll have a go.....

scarfey88 wrote: »

[STRIKE]Hello

So I'm after some advice as this is going to the Ombudsmen, and I'm not sure if I have a chance in hell.[/STRIKE]

So basically, I was moved to Germany for 18 months with work, and I decided to rent our flat out whilst I was away.
I'm guessing this is a flat you own?
Date tenancy started?
Length of tenancy agreement? (or was it periodic)?
The first tenant moved out after 3 months as he got a new job,
Was this a 3 month tenancy?
Or did he do a runner?
O did you agree an Early Surrender?
Or what?
and there was a 1 week gap before the new tenant moved in. I left all this to my letting agent who I was paying to fully manage the property.
Did the agent do a check out report and send it to you?
Did it include meter readings?

Did the agent do a check-in inventory and give it to you?
Did it include meter readings?

Did you or your agent contact the utilities with meter readings to take over the account when tenant 1 left, and to close the account when tenant 2 moved in?

Anyway, come to June this year, the tenant wasn't paying rent
This is tenant number 2?
Date tenancy started?
Length of tenancy agreement?
Amount of arrears?
and so I evicted them
Evicted how?
On what date?
Check out inspection done by agency? Or you? Or not done?
Did the inspection record the meter readings?

and me and my wife moved back into the flat.
Did you record the meter readings?
Give them to the utility company?
[STRIKE]The tenants had left a load of debt, [/STRIKE]but I rang and changed over all my utilities into me and my wife's name, and everything was sorted as far as I was aware.
OK
However, come to October this year, I receive a letter from a debt collection agency (LCS) claiming that I owe some money to Eon (somewhere in the region of £1400).
No bill in your name sent before this?
I wasn't with Eon energy so assumed it was for the previous tenant, though I was a bit confused as to why this had taken until October to be sorted out. I sent a copy of the tenancy agreement to the debt collector and told them that the debt didn't belong to me, thinking nothing else of it.
Did you contact Eon?
Turns out the tenant hadn't bothered changing the electricity bill over into their name.
Tenant numer 1 or number 2?
What dates does the bill cover?
Eon then rang me and told me that as there had been a week whereby there was no one living in the flat, despite the usage being 0, there was a £1.49 standing order that had been owed from that period.
You (or your agent) should have put the account into your name between tenants - did you/they?
I was happy to pay that, accepting that as the owner I was responsible for that week. However, they told me that because that £1.49 had gone to a debt collection agency, fees had been added and that I now owed £400. This was for a debt that I had no idea existed or that I owed anything. I asked Eon when they had told me about this debt, and they told me that as they didn't know who lived at the property, they had been writing to 'the occupier'. Now the confusing bit is that the debt collection agency had written to me personally, so they somehow now had my name, having not had it before (evidently it took them almost 18 months to get my name and tell me about the debt). Now I told them that I was in Germany at the time, and therefore I wasn't the occupier, so wouldn't have received any bills. Also, they hadn't actually written any demands letters until January 2016, though they had sent someone to the property to change the meter from a credit meter to a prepayment meter in October 2015. What's annoying is that to get access to the property, they had spoken to the tenants who owed the money, yet still didn't put their name to any of the bills! Me, being in Germany, remained oblivious to all of this.
So they billed 'The Occupier' for a period when you were not 'the Occupier'

My argument is that the charge is entirely disproportionate, and that at no point was I made aware that any bill was owed.
Well, bills do esclate when other professionals get involved (debt agencies, soliciors etc), and they did write to the address. They could hardly know your address in Germany could they?
Eon are claiming they have done nothing wrong and that I owe the money, so I'm now awaiting the Ombudsmen. I just can't believe that Eon have been allowed to do this!

It appears that you and/or your agent have been pretty lax with the procedure of tenant check in and out.

Personally, when a new tenant moves in, at the same time as doing the other paperwork, I present them with a pre-typed letter, written in their name /address, to each utility, stating they are taking over the account. I get them to add the meter reading, and sign, and then I post it for them so I know it's done.

But your agent really should have a record of meter readings - you'll need to read the contract you have with them - but they were 'managing' the property, so you might have a case against them.

As for Eon's case against you, I'm not sure. Yes, you can present tenancy agreements showing which tenant was in occupation for which date, but I suspect (not sure here) that

* if a tenant does not enter into a contract with the utilities, then they have no liability
* if a landlord/previous tenant fails to terminate a contract with the utilities, then their liability continues

hence much hangs on what procedures you/your agent undertook at each hand-over.

Finally - how did the bill jump from £400 to £1400 or was that a typo?

FBaby

I am guessing that as the first tenant left, you became responsible for any use of utilities. As the new tenants didn't register themselves with any company, e-on continued to charge you. The agency should have sorted this out for you.

It now sounds that having seen the tenancy agreement, they are accepting that you are not responsible for that time, however, you are still responsible for that week. The question is how did it go from £1.40 to £400. At some point, they must have got your name and must have written to you. Did you have your mail redirected to you anywhere?

Guest101

The tenants would have a deemed contract, unless there was a contract in place ( eg in your name OP ). In which case ( aside from any criminal element ) you would need to pursue them in civil court to recover the money.

As for £400 in fees being added, you do t need an ombudsman. You need to send them a letter asking for proof of the debt. If it's not been sold on it will eventually be returned to the principle ( eon )

always_sunny

scarfey88 wrote: »

Turns out the tenant hadn't bothered changing the electricity bill over into their name.

Why didn't you bother informing Eon that you were no longer on the property from x date?
So you had a tenant but you were the registered user on the utility?

I haven't used Eon but British Gas, Scottish Power and NPower all offered electronic bills.

scarfey88

Whilst it may be verbose, it contains only what I see as the relevant facts, but see below for my responses to your attempts at clarification.

So basically, I was moved to Germany for 18 months with work, and I decided to rent our flat out whilst I was away.
I'm guessing this is a flat you own? Yes
Date tenancy started? Relevance? It was Jan 15.
Length of tenancy agreement? (or was it periodic)? 2 1 year, again, relevance?

The first tenant moved out after 3 months as he got a new job,
Agreed Early Surrender, relevance?

There was a 1 week gap before the new tenant moved in. I left all this to my letting agent who I was paying to fully manage the property.
Did the agent do a check out report and send it to you? Yes
Did it include meter readings? Yes

Did the agent do a check-in inventory and give it to you? Yes
Did it include meter readings? Yes

Did you or your agent contact the utilities with meter readings to take over the account when tenant 1 left, and to close the account when tenant 2 moved in? Yes, and all utility companies were contacted by the management company less the electricity company.

Anyway, come to June this year, the tenant wasn't paying rent
This is tenant number 2? Yes
Date tenancy started? Apr 15
Length of tenancy agreement? 2 years
Amount of arrears? Irrelevent
Evicted how? Through letting agent
On what date? June this year
Check out inspection done by agency? Yes.
Did the inspection record the meter readings? No as meter had been replaced to a prepayment meter by Eon due to them not paying bills.

and me and my wife moved back into the flat.
Did you record the meter readings? Prepayment meter...
Give them to the utility company? Yes...


However, come to October this year, I receive a letter from a debt collection agency (LCS) claiming that I owe some money to Eon (somewhere in the region of £1400).
No bill in your name sent before this? No bills in my name, just 'to the occupier sent in October 2015.

I wasn't with Eon energy so assumed it was for the previous tenant, though I was a bit confused as to why this had taken until October to be sorted out. I sent a copy of the tenancy agreement to the debt collector and told them that the debt didn't belong to me, thinking nothing else of it.
Did you contact Eon? Yes, like I said above, I sent a copy of the tenancy agreement...

Turns out the tenant hadn't bothered changing the electricity bill over into their name.
Tenant numer 1 or number 2? Tenant 2...
What dates does the bill cover? Apr 15-Jun 16


So they billed 'The Occupier' for a period when you were not 'the Occupier'

My argument is that the charge is entirely disproportionate, and that at no point was I made aware that any bill was owed.
Well, bills do esclate when other professionals get involved (debt agencies, soliciors etc), and they did write to the address. They could hardly know your address in Germany could they?

They easily could have got that address, as the property was being managed by a letting agent. The tenants were registered with the council for council tax, so I disagree with this. Also, every other utlity company found me in Germany so I could pay the standing charges for the week the flat was empty, so mute point





It appears that you and/or your agent have been pretty lax with the procedure of tenant check in and out.

Personally, when a new tenant moves in, at the same time as doing the other paperwork, I present them with a pre-typed letter, written in their name /address, to each utility, stating they are taking over the account. I get them to add the meter reading, and sign, and then I post it for them so I know it's done.

This was done by the letting agent, I just don't understand why they didn't do anything with the meter readings.

As for Eon's case against you, I'm not sure. Yes, you can present tenancy agreements showing which tenant was in occupation for which date, but I suspect (not sure here) that

* if a tenant does not enter into a contract with the utilities, then they have no liability
* if a landlord/previous tenant fails to terminate a contract with the utilities, then their liability continues

hence much hangs on what procedures you/your agent undertook at each hand-over.

Like I said above, Eon have no attributed the usage during the period to me, they have it in the previous tenants name. What is being disputed here is the £1.49 standing charge from April 2015 that has become £400. A £1.49 charge that at no point was I made aware of.

Finally - how did the bill jump from £400 to £1400 or was that a typo?

For the debt 'typo':
The TOTAL debt for the period is £1400 of electricity usage, which when I provided the tenant agreement was attributed to the previous tenant. That isn't the issue.

scarfey88

Ok, so to clarify, at no point was I named personally on any bills relating to the property. I lived at the property, closed down my energy account with Co-Operative energy when I moved abroad and then left it to the management company to square for me, as per the contract I had signed with them. It's not a case of me 'no bothering' to tell anyone, I had paid a company to do it on my behalf.

All mail that arrived at the flat for me was forwarded by the letting agent to me in Germany. I have taken the matter up with the letting agent and they can't answer why they didn't sort the electricity account when the tenants moved in.

silvercar

I doubt that they would have chased £1.49 owing in the same way they chase for £400.

I wonder if paying £1.49 would help them close the case.

AdrianC

scarfey88 wrote: »

It appears that you and/or your agent have been pretty lax with the procedure of tenant check in and out.

This was done by the letting agent, I just don't understand why they didn't do anything with the meter readings.

Whether you did it or your agent did it (or, rather, didn't do it) is kinda irrelevant really - except insofar as it informs your decision as to whether to use that agent again in the future. YOU are the landlord, and you are liable.

So... you had an unpaid electricity account in your name. That debt was sent to collection agents. You have disputed much of that debt, and it has now been removed from the unpaid account - but that account is still with the collection agents. Your account. On which collection fees have been accrued.

Pixie5740

scarfey88 wrote: »

Whilst it may be verbose, it contains only what I see as the relevant facts, but see below for my responses to your attempts at clarification.

Well it didn't. You missed out a lot of relevant information which G_M then had to ask for.

scarfey88 wrote: »

Date tenancy started? Relevance? It was Jan 15.

That's not a date. G_M is asking for the exact date the tenancy started i.e. 15th January 2015, not some woolly moment in time like January 2015.

There is a relevance to the questions G_M asked, to determine who is liable for the utility bill.

TBagpuss

If you are saying that your contract with the agents included their managing the utility bills it sounds as though your complaint would be against the agents, more than Eon.