In a 3x Pickle with Indigo

meandorris

So, I have managed to get in a bit of a pickle having now racked up 3x PCN's from Indigo relating to parking in a train station car park - a breakdown of state of play below:

PCN No 1 recieved 19th July - This was a genuine "just forgot"

PCN No 2 recieved 5th September, - This was actually paid, or so I thought, but it turns out that the wrong car park code was entered on the pay by phone system (one digit out) - So a payment was taken, but for the wrong / another car park.

PCN No 3 received 12th October - Again, this was attempted / thought to have been paid, as a payment by text, there was no message to say the text hadn't been sent, but there was no normal confirmation reply text back.

Regards PCN No1:

I had intended to appeal based on the templates here on insufficient notice/ not naming the driver/ unreasonable charges basis, but got a bit sidetracked at the time.

I received a Notice To Keeper on 25th August. Balance increased from £100 (£60 if paid within 14 days) to £124.

Another letter received on 22nd September (from ZZPS) - Passed to them to resolve - chasing payment and Balance increased to £160.

Another letter received 6th October - Balance still £160 says will pass to solicitors if not paid and will add another £36.

Sent an appeal letter based on templates on 10th October, but think may have been sent to head office address rather than correct appeals address.

Received another letter this morning (31st October - letter dated 27th Oct) from Solicitors with balance now £196, saying they may advise client to take to court if remains unpaid.

I have had no reply regards the appeal letter sent on 10th October.

Regards PCN No2:

Received Notice To Keeper on 11th October.

Nothing received as yet regards PCN No 3.

So regards PCB No 1, I am not sure what to do, should I contact the Solicitors informing them I have appealed to the PCN issuer (I did put in my appeal letter to Indigo they should refrain from engaging debt collection and that I would ignore any 3rd part correspondence)?

Should I just sit tight and wait for a response from the appeal letter (although it was outside the appeal period quoted by the issuer)?

Should I send appeal letters for PCN's 2 & 3, and is it even worth mentioning the actual mitigating circumstances (i.e. wrong code entered for 2, and payment text sent for 3 but not acknowledged) or will that be wasting my time.

Any advice would be very much appreciated!

Carthesis

Well, firstly, Indigo have been a bit keen on these recently.

Is this, by chance, at a station managed by Southern Trains? I vaguely recall someone pointing out Indigo is a trading name of a division of Southern Trains...

Anyway, in general terms, if this is a station covered by Byelaws, then the PPC can be invited to take a long walk off a short pier and FRO, as in that case only the Train Operating Company can take you to court, only within 6 months, and only for trespass.

See other Indigo threads on the forum for further details of this.

In regards PCN #1: So they've upped the charge from £60/£100 on the windscreen ticket, to £124 on the NtK? They can't do that generally, and I'm certainly willing to bet that whatever poor excuse for signage they have up doesn't suggest that if they attempt to pursue the Keeper Liability angle that there will be additional charges. And that's before you consider Byelaws, and before you consider any other appeal points you may or may not have.

Write to ZZPS, tell them the debt is disputed in general terms and that due to Railway Byelaws, PPCs (and their poodle debt-collector friends) cannot in any way pursue you to court, and ask them to refer the matter back to their Client, then you've only got 6 months to hold out before it's statute-barred.

Redx

Indigo is the new trading name for VINCI park and also for another previous BPA parking company which I cannot remember

they are a contractor for various companies including train operators, but are only a contractor and not a part of any railway company

BYELAWS apply so follow the rest of the advice above and IGNORE the debt collectors, but DO appeal any tickets and prepare popla appeals if they do not cancel

never ignore, always appeal as keeper, always do a popla appeal, even though popla has placed them on hold due to byelaw issues

appeal PCN 2 as keeper with the blue text template, do not indicate who was driving, do not attempt any explanations either

for PCN 3 , ignore the windscreen ticket , wait for the NTK then appeal as above, as keeper, same template

Carthesis

Redx wrote: »

Indigo is the new trading name for VINCI park and also for another previous BPA parking company which I cannot remember

they are a contractor for various companies including train operators, but are only a contractor and not a part of any railway company

Thanks for clarifying. As I say - I had some vague recollection of seeing someone reliable suggesting Indigo might be wholly-owned by Southern Trains, but I can't remember who, and I've not been able to find where, so entirely possible I was getting conflated with someone else.

Umkomaas

Received another letter this morning (31st October - letter dated 27th Oct) from Solicitors with balance now £196, saying they may advise client to take to court if remains unpaid.

Which Solicitors?

Umkomaas

Here's a case just starting the process with Indigo. Suggest you bookmark this and follow the progress of that one. The OP will be getting good advice on PePiPoo so use that to supplement what you get here.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=109530&st=0&#entry1225475

Also read up on past cases and those still in transition. Use forum search engines here and PePiPoo with terms like Indigo Byelaws, Indigo POPLA, and Indigo Train Station which should bring you a good range of results. Read only those with recent posts from this summer forwards.

meandorris

Many thanks for the replies.

Carthesis wrote: »

Is this, by chance, at a station managed by Southern Trains? I vaguely recall someone pointing out Indigo is a trading name of a division of Southern Trains...

In regards PCN #1: So they've upped the charge from £60/£100 on the windscreen ticket, to £124 on the NtK? They can't do that generally, and I'm certainly willing to bet that whatever poor excuse for signage they have up doesn't suggest that if they attempt to pursue the Keeper Liability angle that there will be additional charges. And that's before you consider Byelaws, and before you consider any other appeal points you may or may not have.

Write to ZZPS, tell them the debt is disputed in general terms and that due to Railway Byelaws, PPCs (and their poodle debt-collector friends) cannot in any way pursue you to court, and ask them to refer the matter back to their Client, then you've only got 6 months to hold out before it's statute-barred.

The operator is Thameslink & Great Northern in this instance.

So for PCN No1. should I send another appeal letter or just sit tight a while longer and see what happens?

The appeal letter I sent was actually posted to the appeal address on the back of the PCN (which said needed to be done with 28 days).

However, the "Notice To Owner" (their words) is titled "PCN Admin Centre" and has "Indigo" beneath it, but it is says on the rear to appeal within 28 days to the "address shown above" - however - there is no address shown above. In the pay by post section it says make payable to ZZPS to the address shown overleaf. The address overleaf at the top of the PCN is a completely different address to the appeal address on the back of the PCN (where I sent the appeal)!

All very confusing, not really sure how these entities tie up. It does say at the bottom of the letter that PCN Admin Centre is a trading name of ZZPS Limited.

The only mention of Indigo is their logo at the top of the letter and in the details it lists "Our Client: Indigo Park Solutions UK Limited".

And for info, the letter states (in bold) that as owner I am legally liable for the penalty even if I was not the driver at the time - is this correct? Goes against my understanding?

The further follow up letter dropped all pretences and just used the ZZPS name and logo.

Just to confirm, the appeal letter was sent (to the Indigo address) 83 days after the PCN and 46 days after the Notice To Owner (with the ZZPS appeal address listed on it).

What would/should Indigo do with an appeal letter received outside of their 28 days? I would have thought they would acknowledge / pass on to ZZPS?

I could send a copy to ZZPS stating it is a copy of an appeal letter previously sent to Indigo, but am I scuppered as it is outside of their 28 day period also?

Redx wrote: »

never ignore, always appeal as keeper, always do a popla appeal, even though popla has placed them on hold due to byelaw issues

appeal PCN 2 as keeper with the blue text template, do not indicvate who was driving, do not attempt any explanations either

for PCN 3 , ignore the windscreen ticket , wait for the NTK then appeal as above, as keeper, same template

Sorry, what do you mean by the "blue text template"?

Re PCN No.2 , I am actually on Day 28 of the date of the NTK, so I should appeal that today, I can do it by email or online?

This is text I used previously - is this OK or does it need tweaking?:

I challenge this 'Penalty Notice' as registered keeper of the car, on these main grounds: a). The sum is disproportionate, does not represent a genuine pre-estimate of loss, nor is it a core price term. b) The sum is extravagant and unconscionable and cannot be justified. c). There is no evidence that you have any interest in the land. I will complain to the landowner about your aggressive ticketing. d). Your 'Notice' fails to comply with the POFA so there can be no keeper liability. e). I believe that the signs were not seen/are ambiguous and the predominant purpose is to deter so there is no contract to pay this charge, which is a penalty. Formal challenge There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 or cancel the charge. I will appeal further to POPLA if necessary.

''Drop hands'' offer The charge is baseless but I realise that you may have nominal stationary costs. Equally, I have incurred costs for responding to your notice dressed up to mimic a parking ticket and for cleaning the residue resulting from your notice being affixed to the vehicle windscreen. It is clear that my costs and yours, at this point, do not exceed £15 so this is a formal “drop hands” offer. I remind you of the duty to mitigate any loss, so withdraw the spurious charge within 35 days and I will not pursue you for my costs. Breach of CCRs I hereby give notice of withdrawal from this alleged 'contract' which was never properly offered nor expressly agreed. This 'contract' is cancelled and any obligations now end.

Furthermore, refrain from sending debt collector letters and do not add any costs or surcharges. I will not respond to such contact and to involve another firm would be a failure to mitigate your costs which are not my liability because the POFA 2012 can only potentially hold a registered keeper liable if certain provisions have been met and even then, the 'amount of the parking charge' is the only amount pursuable. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

Umkomaas wrote: »

Which Solicitors?

The firm is Wright Hassall Solicitors. It is today now day 12 from the date of the letter giving me 14 days to pay or they may recommend legal action.

meandorris

Further info:

So re PCN 2, I have logged on to ipaymypcn.net to check out the option of submitting the appeal online, but there doesn't seem to be anywhere obvious to enter an appeal.

In fact it says "Appeal Status: Not Sent" and "Original Charge: £160 + £4.69 card surcharge" while the amount on the NTK is £124 (whilst the PCN was £100 or £60 if within 14 days) - !!!!!!!?

There is a field to "add notes" and Save - but not obviously how to appeal?

The £160 amount ties in with the increase was on the ZZPS letter for PCN 1 (as a follow up to the unpaid NTK).

So it looks like they may have already removed the appeal option and upped the amount even though on day 28!

pappa_golf

[QUOTE=Redx;71538661]Indigo is the new trading name for VINCI park and also for another previous BPA parking company which I cannot remember

they are a contractor for various companies including train operators, but are only a contractor and not a part of any railway company

BYELAWS apply so follow the rest of the advice above and IGNORE the debt collectors, but DO appeal any tickets and prepare popla appeals if they do not cancel

never ignore, always appeal as keeper, always do a popla appeal, even though popla has placed them on hold due to byelaw issues

appeal PCN 2 as keeper with the blue text template, do not indicvate who was driving, do not attempt any explanations either

for PCN 3 , ignore the windscreen ticket , wait for the NTK then appeal as above, as keeper, same template[/QUOTE]


VINCI PARK SERVICES UK LTD. 27 Sep 2001 - 05 Nov 2015
SUREWAY PARKING SERVICES LTD 01 Jul 1998 - 27 Sep 2001
CAPITAL PARKING LIMITED 18 Aug 1989 - 01 Jul 1998
PADLIST LIMITED 17 Mar 1989 - 18 Aug 1989

pappa_golf

meandorris wrote: »

Further info:

So re PCN 2, I have logged on to ipaymypcn.net to check out the option of submitting the appeal online, but there doesn't seem to be anywhere obvious to enter an appeal.

In fact it says "Appeal Status: Not Sent" and "Original Charge: £160 + £4.69 card surcharge" while the amount on the NTK is £124 (whilst the PCN was £100 or £60 if within 14 days) - !!!!!!!?

There is a field to "add notes" and Save - but not obviously how to appeal?

The £160 amount ties in with the increase was on the ZZPS letter for PCN 1 (as a follow up to the unpaid NTK).

So it looks like they may have already removed the appeal option and upped the amount even though on day 28!

ipaymypcn.net is a money collecting portal , your APPEALS should go to indigo

like the £4.69 card surcharge fee , think the BPA would not approve.

sit back , because POPLa cannot decide if bylaw cases fall under POPLa , if its found that they do not , then no appeal system means no tickets

meandorris

pappa_golf wrote: »

ipaymypcn.net is a money collecting portal , your APPEALS should go to indigo

It does say on the letter from ZZPS that an appeal can be made on that portal?

If I send direct to Indigo, I am well outside the 28days but if to ZZPS am just within the 28days of their NTK?