UK Quarter 3 2016 GDP +0.5%

wotsthat

Tromking wrote: »

Anyone notice with the average 'remainiac' that its always the next set of figures rather than the current ones that are important?

I'm not a remainiac. My position has always been clear. I've never predicted financial Armageddon, recession, WW3, etc. rather that additional uncertainty due to Brexit will lead to reduced, delayed or cancelled investment for a number of years. The first post referendum ONS data will be available in a month's time.

You're arguing from a position where the sun still rising after June 23rd represents a victory of sorts albeit a hollow one.

wotsthat

Hoochypooch wrote: »

The issue of tariffs is somewhat a mute one, if the EU puts tariffs on our goods we will naturally put tariffs on theirs so the next effect is zero.

So if I buy a Spanish tomato with a 10p tariff on it and a Portuguese person buys a British egg with a 10p tariff on it that nets to zero?

You'll have to explain that because as far as I can see I've just had 10p added to my food shop and so has my Portuguese friend.

But I shouldn't worry because that 10p could reduce a tax for someone else?

Bonkers.

TrickyTree83

wotsthat wrote: »

So if I buy a Spanish tomato with a 10p tariff on it and a Portuguese person buys a British egg with a 10p tariff on it that nets to zero?

You'll have to explain that because as far as I can see I've just had 10p added to my food shop and so has my Portuguese friend.

But I shouldn't worry because that 10p could reduce a tax for someone else?

Bonkers.

I think the idea is that the tariffs we put on imports results in revenue generation for HM Treasury, which can translate into tax cuts for people and business. That's a choice the government can make. So whilst the tomato may cost more, you've more money to spend anyway. I think that's the rationale.

wotsthat

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I think the idea is that the tariffs we put on imports results in revenue generation for HM Treasury, which can translate into tax cuts for people and business. That's a choice the government can make. So whilst the tomato may cost more, you've more money to spend anyway. I think that's the rationale.

I was under the impression you thought free trade was a good thing?

I pay 10p tariff on that tomato, the government then collect the 10p, the government then give it me back via a tax cut. Why don't they cut out the (expensive) middle man and just not bother with the import tariff? The UK egg producer trying to sell eggs to my Portuguese friend isn't exactly enamored with the idea of a 10p tariff in his products either.

Logic should tell you the idea is ridiculous.

There are two losers in tariff wars - those imposing them and those paying them.

Hoochypooch

setmefree2 wrote: »

And so is our National Debt which why everyone loves devaluing currency.

75% of the national debt is owed to British institutions and people so it would be in pounds. It would be owed to banks and pensions fund etc..

TrickyTree83

wotsthat wrote: »

I was under the impression you thought free trade was a good thing?

I pay 10p tariff on that tomato, the government then collect the 10p, the government then give it me back via a tax cut. Why don't they cut out the (expensive) middle man and just not bother with the import tariff? The UK egg producer trying to sell eggs to my Portuguese friend isn't exactly enamored with the idea of a 10p tariff in his products either.

Logic should tell you the idea is ridiculous.

There are two losers in tariff wars - those imposing them and those paying them.

I'm for EEA/EFTA.

I was merely trying to illustrate the rationale that as a net importer, tariffs will indeed hurt the EU more than they will the UK if such a system was employed.

The people of the UK would still be able to afford items from the EU with increased spending power but yes it would hurt our exports to the EU, then again that only counts for 11% (generous estimate) of our businesses and they could be subsidised from the tariff's raised on the imports too as I mentioned earlier.

On the micro level the tariff system doesn't make sense, I'd agree. On the macro level in the situation in which we find ourselves with the other 27 EU nations, the tariff system would benefit the UK. But only if we continue to import vast amounts more than we export.

spadoosh

wotsthat wrote: »

I was under the impression you thought free trade was a good thing?

I pay 10p tariff on that tomato, the government then collect the 10p, the government then give it me back via a tax cut. Why don't they cut out the (expensive) middle man and just not bother with the import tariff? The UK egg producer trying to sell eggs to my Portuguese friend isn't exactly enamored with the idea of a 10p tariff in his products either.

Logic should tell you the idea is ridiculous.

There are two losers in tariff wars - those imposing them and those paying them.

So it would be safe to say that theres not much sense in the EU deciding we cant do free trade. This is the whole cutting your nose to spite your face argument.

As a side to the both end user being annoyed they have to pay 10p more you would imagine the uk would be encouraged to grow more tomatoes and the portuguese would be encouraged to have more chickens (thus eggs) so it would be much better for the environment and would reduce completely unnecessary travel.

Seems like either situation is a win win to me.

Graham_Devon

wotsthat wrote: »

When you've invested millions in a factory you don't just up sticks because you don't like the result of the referendum. You still have to sweat the assets because the cost is already sunk. What you probably don't do is spend millions building another factory just yet.

I know - you'll find MANY posts from me stating exactly that. But I was told, not by yourself, but by many on here that this wasn't the case, factories would go to Germany etc.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=70981755&postcount=78

You may remember the manufacturer of plane wings thread. I said exactly what you sttae above on that very thread. Our Scottish friend, and many others denied it was the case, people would move etc etc.

The whole premise was that manufacturers would move into the EU away from the UK to sell their goods within the EU. My premise was good luck to them - they need to find and retrain staff, up all of their manufacturing equipment etc etc which would be a HUGE expense.

As you say above, you are not a remainiac, but you've certainly supported such posts, if not used your own words. Just funny you are now stating the very same things others have been stating for a while.

wotsthat

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I was merely trying to illustrate the rationale that as a net importer, tariffs will indeed hurt the EU more than they will the UK if such a system was employed.

The people of the UK would still be able to afford items from the EU with increased spending power but yes it would hurt our exports to the EU, then again that only counts for 11% (generous estimate) of our businesses and they could be subsidised from the tariff's raised on the imports too as I mentioned earlier.

On the micro level the tariff system doesn't make sense, I'd agree. On the macro level in the situation in which we find ourselves with the other 27 EU nations, the tariff system would benefit the UK. But only if we continue to import vast amounts more than we export.

You can't be a proponent of free trade and then say a tariff system would benefit the UK.

It's no comfort to me that my food shop has gone up by 10p but my Portguese friend's has gone up by 12p.

wotsthat

Graham_Devon wrote: »

I know - you'll find MANY posts from me stating exactly that. But I was told, not by yourself, but by many on here that this wasn't the case, factories would go to Germany etc.

You may remember the manufacturer of plane wings thread. I said exactly what you sttae above on that very thread. Our Scottish friend, and many others denied it was the case, people would move etc etc.

The whole premise was that manufacturers would move into the EU away from the UK to sell their goods within the EU. My premise was good luck to them - they need to find and retrain staff, up all of their manufacturing equipment etc etc which would be a HUGE expense.

As you say above, you are not a remainiac, but you've certainly supported such posts, if not used your own words.

Graham you're premature. It's going to be years (if ever) before you can claim victory in this argument.