Forgot to pay - called - what to do

Coupon-mad

anothpark wrote: »

Do you think it's worth also complaining to the train company in this instance (like it's recommended people complain to shops) I'd literally just renewed an annual season ticket which isn't a small amount of money so I could argue with them that the charge is massively excessive and they clearly haven't lost out that much

I would not raise this to their attention. Just play email tennis with Indigo, slowly! You should still get a POPLA code and can win that anyway, using the previous Indigo winning POPLA appeals we have had this Summer, which use the byelaws to show that only the owner can be liable and the owner cannot be assumed to be the driver appellant, the individual being pursued.

You can find a POPLA appeal that won (we have loads) by searching this board for 'Indigo POPLA individual owner'.

POPLA have currently 'stayed' decisions in byelaws cases - that's a good thing (a delay!) so make sure your appeal is in that slow-cooking pot once you get a POPLA code (not too soon, you have 28 days to use a POPLA code so submit it on day 28!).

anothpark

So I've been doing a lot of reading on this forum on others and just wanted to put down my understanding:

1) I should write an appeal to Indigo around day 25 of receiving the windscreen notice. I'm assuming I should do this as the keeper and not the driver? Should I mention in this that the driver tried to call and pay etc. and that the driver is a regular user of the train car park having always normally paid. Should I also say that I won't be naming the driver? and also say I think the charge is excessive?

2) After they inevitably reject my appeal and issue me a POPLA code,I then make a note of whether an actual 'Notice to Keeper' is issued - if it's not I include this in my POPLA appeal which I submit as late as possible (even though Rail Byelaw 14 applies in this case and shouldn't be POPLA? The penalty notice does explicitly call out byelaw 14)

3) Play email ping pong with Indigo for as long as possible?

This thread seems to have a lot of useful points for the POPLA appeal https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5451773 though in that instance a ticket was purchased whereas in my case no ticket was

thanks

Coupon-mad

1) I should write an appeal to Indigo around day 25 of receiving the windscreen notice. I'm assuming I should do this as the keeper and not the driver? Should I mention in this that the driver tried to call and pay etc. and that the driver is a regular user of the train car park having always normally paid. Should I also say that I won't be naming the driver?

Yes to all.

and also say I think the charge is excessive?

No point. That does not win, does not feature at POPLA stage.

2) After they inevitably reject my appeal and issue me a POPLA code,I then make a note of whether an actual 'Notice to Keeper' is issued - if it's not I include this in my POPLA appeal which I submit as late as possible (even though Rail Byelaw 14 applies in this case and shouldn't be POPLA? The penalty notice does explicitly call out byelaw 14)

Yes indeedy.

3) Play email ping pong with Indigo for as long as possible?

Yes if needed, for example if POPLA decide they will not hear any byelaws cases any more. Then you'd just need to string it to six months.

You won't be paying.

anothpark

So as expected the appeal was rejected. What's even more annoying is one day after the initial incident the car was parked at the station again and a ticket bought straight away only to discover that the trains were cancelled that day. Ended up having to drive to another station and pay another full days parking. I pointed this out and said they haven't lost any money and hopefully common sense would prevail. However they chose to ignore this point completely. So now it's onto the POPLA appeal. I'm unsure whether to include this on there or not. I'm guessing no as it doesn't form part of the normal winning appeals

Part of me really wanted to be cheeky and write another letter saying that because they've ignored the fact that I had parking for the same car in 2 places on the same day (which is clearly impossible) that I would be charging them for that and the time I've spent chasing it up to a tune worth more than their charge!

Umkomaas

Complain to the TOC, not Indigo about the parking payment and having to pay again at another station. Tell them in the process about the hounding you're getting from Indigo and ask them, as a gesture of goodwill, given the fiasco of having to pay twice, they get Indigo off your back.

Worth an email.

Coupon-mad

So now it's onto the POPLA appeal.

Search the forum for 'Indigo POPLA' as keywords. Show us your draft.

anothpark

Ok so here's my first draft POPLA appeal

Dear Sir/Madam,

On the 24th October 2016 a vehicle of which I am the registered keeper received a Notice to driver. The vehicle in question is described as “Parked without displaying valid payment”. As the keeper of the vehicle in question and not the driver as made clear to Indigo Park Solutions Ltd, I am submitting the following evidence in my appeal:

1) As of 19/12/2016 no actual “Notice to Keeper” has been received and paragraph 5 of POFA 2012 states this should have arrived 28 days after 28 days a notice to driver was issued. According to my calculations that should be the 19/12/2016. The current correspondence also does not comply with POFA 2012. As Indigo are unable to confirm who the driver of the vehicle was at the time of the alleged infringment it is their responsibility to comply with Paragraph 8 of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedom Act 2012.

Although the letter mentions the Vehicle and a date, my understanding of schedule 4 is that they should provide a period of parking and the relevant land. A date does not constitute the period of parking with relation to the PCN and the relevant land is just listed as “*TOWN*/Car Park”, as there are a number of car parks in *TOWN* I do not believe this constitutes identifying the relevant land – this does not comply with paragraph 8:2(a). Furthermore paragraph 8:2(e) states that if the creditor does not know the name and address of the driver they should inform me of such a fact and either invite me to pay or provide the drivers details.None of this has been outlined by Indigo Park Solution Ltd. in their letter in accordance with paragraph 6:2 of POFA 2012

2). I do not believe that the Operator has demonstrated a proprietary interest in the land, because they have no legal possession which would give Indigo Park Solution Ltd any right to offer parking spaces, let alone allege a contract with third party customers of the lawful owner/occupiers. In addition, Indigo Park Solution Ltd's lack of title in this land means they have no legal standing to allege trespass or loss, if that is the basis of their charge. I require Indigo Park Solution Ltd to demonstrate their legal ownership of the land to POPLA.

3). I contend that Indigo Park Solution Ltd are only an agent working for the owner and their signs do not help them to form a contract without any consideration capable of being offered. VCS -v-HMRC 2012 is the binding decision in the Upper Chamber which covers this issue with compelling statements of fact about this sort of business model.

4). I believe there is no contract with the landowner/occupier that entitles them to levy these charges and therefore has no authority to issue parking charge notices (PCNs). This being the case, the burden of proof shifts to Indigo Park Solution Ltd to prove otherwise so I require that Indigo Park Solution Ltd produce a copy of their contract with the owner/occupier and that the POPLA adjudicator scrutinises it.

5). Even if a basic contract is produced and mentions PCNs, the lack of ownership or assignment of title or interest in the land reduces any contract to one that exists simply on an agency basis between Indigo Park Solution Ltd and the owner/occupier, containing nothing that Indigo Park Solution Ltd can lawfully use in their own name as a mere agent, that could impact on a third party customer.

6) A railway car park is not 'relevant land' as it is already covered by statutory byelaws and so is specifically excluded from 'keeper liability' under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. As I am the registered keeper I am not legally liable as this Act does not apply on this land. I put the Operator to strictly prove otherwise if they disagree with this point and would require them to show evidence including documentary proof from the applicable Authority that this land is not already covered by byelaws.

pappa_golf

of this was a railway carpark , clearly mark your appeal "bylaw case" in order to remind popla that cases involving bylaws are on hold

anothpark

So I submitted a popla appeal and they're currently awaiting info from the operator.

But I've also receive another letter from Indigo's PCN admin centre as an 'Overdue Penalty Notice to Owner' considering a NTK/NTO was never actually received this was a shock! They state the cost is now £124 due to admin costs and has the usual threat of magistrates court. There is an appeal email on there as well for 'ipaymypcn.net'

Should I write to that as well? Point out that the date of the letter is massively over the 28 days + 28 days for a NTK to be issued according to POFA 2012 and that I will be reporting them to the BPA and DVLA especially as no NTK was ever actually received? I could also mention it's aggressive tone is even more unwelcome especially as it's currently under POPLA appeal awaiting info from them?

I've half a mind to say that because they're making me do admin to reply to a letter I should never have received I'm gonna start charging them for admin costs as well - especially as I don't have someone actually employed to do it!

thanks

pappa_golf

as an appeal is in progress a formal complaint should be made , on POPLA website it clearly states

"1 September 2016. Parking operators should not pursue payment while the cases are adjourned."

https://popla.co.uk/


PS , why are POPLa awaiting info from the operator.? the ticket states the location , your appeal states the location , the land comes under bylaws , simple as , and should be on hold until the government (or department of) decides whats happening