VCS Parking Charges (3) - Resulted In County Court Claim Form

bargepole

Coupon-mad wrote: »

The defence was short - post #73, and pre-Jopson transcript.

Yes the original defence was short - and full of completely irrelevant arguments.

Loadsofchildren123

sorry that should be rule 52.19

bargepole

Loadsofchildren123 wrote: »

Practice Direction 52.19, concerning appeal costs says:
(1) In any proceedings in which costs recovery is normally limited or excluded at first instance, an appeal court may make an order that the recoverable costs of an appeal will be limited to the extent which the court specifies.
I have to say, that's clear as mud. Does that mean that costs are at the discretion of the appeal court or that the appeal court can't order them as it's small claims?

Yes, we asked these questions in the Beavis case, and the answer was that at all levels - High Court, Court of Appeal, Supreme Court - it retains the cost restrictions of the Small Claims track unless otherwise ordered by a procedural Judge.

An appeal from a County Court case is still heard in the County Court, but by a higher level Judge - an HHJ or a Recorder - and lay reps are not granted right of audience, unless the Judge decides otherwise.

Lamilad

bargepole wrote: »

It remains on the small claims track, so counsel's fees would not be recoverable.

Ouch! That puts a different slant on things but if we're able to raise the funds then perhaps Kimmy has nothing to lose.

Kimmy - you've had an eventful day and all this is too much to take in right now. Pour yourself a stiff one (if you haven't already) and just let things sink in. Then over the next day or 2 see how your feel.

Important things to remember... You have not failed - you have been stitched up by an incompetent judge. You worked hard and gave yourself a strong case. People have gone into court in a far weaker position than you and won. You were very unlucky today or perhaps VCS were very VERY lucky!

I believe 99 times out of a hundred you would have won your case.

You must hate VCS right now and that puts you in good company on this forum. How you proceed is up to you, but if you decide to take it further you will be well supported; and some of the people who've already posted on your thread tonight are genuine, well connected experts.

Chin up.

Coupon-mad

bargepole wrote: »

Yes the original defence was short - and full of completely irrelevant arguments.

Yes - and not shown to the forum first - and pre-Jopson transcript. So the skeleton (which was overly long, would have been easier to be punchy bullet points) and evidence added the Jopson case. And Pace v Mr N, etc. as well as his landlord's actual lease and his tenancy terms & photos of the signs.

The right evidence was there.

Yet the Judge even allowed VCS to claim a PCN they had no evidence for?! Astonishing outcome.

Kimmy - which court, which Judge?

bargepole

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Kimmy - which court, which Judge?

From the info on Courtserve, it must have been this one:

Liverpool County Court

C4QZ3K7X VCS v G.

There were three DDJs sitting, Brown, Woodward or Batta.

KimmyHrunt

bargepole wrote: »

From the info on Courtserve, it must have been this one:

Liverpool County Court

C4QZ3K7X VCS v G.

Correct.

The witness statement tripped me up i felt.

The lease agreement section of the skeleton argument did not contain direct evidence that my landlord was the leasee - It appears i included the wrong copy of document supplied by the land registery (there were 2 almost identical docs, one which included the above and one which did not), it appears time constraints caused that error on my behalf.

Coupon-mad

You did the best you could and the Judge seems to have been terrible. What did the Judge say about the Jopson case and the other 2 transcripts which supported your argument that you had primacy of contract? Dismissed them out of hand? How come, Jopson is a persuasive Appeal decision, did they not refer to it at all?

When the dust has settled, can you tell us which Judge and what they actually said? Shocking decision, how on earth did the Judge allow the PCN with no evidence photos, yet not allow your landlord's lease?

Loadsofchildren123

OK so the costs position protects you as much as it means you can't recover your costs, because if you lose you won't have to pay theirs.
So if the money can be raised, or someone will do this pro bono, then it might be worth a go.
But there's no point appealing a decision for the sake of it, there has to be something in it that's appealable. The judge either has to err at law (eg ignored or misinterpreted Jopson), or have perversely exercised their discretion (eg to hold you to have been the driver when no other reasonable person would have made that finding, on the balance of probabilities). The latter would be more problematic. Erring at law would be an easier appeal point to prove. But of course we need to know a bit more. Were you able to write down what the judge said in her judgment, or recall it in any detail?

You may of course prefer to close the door on the whole episode - even if someone does it for free or third parties raise the funds, you still have the stress of the whole thing hanging over you, and of course unless the court stays the order you still have to pay within the deadline set by the court. I would completely understand if you made this decision.

I am curious to know the circumstances in which leave to appeal was given, and if it was given in relation to a limited point.

Half_way

Some PPCs put the names of their court victims up on a webpage, not sure iof VCS do this, although dont be surprised to see you name listed under the look who we took to court and beat type page.

Not sure if it was posted before, but i would recommend you take a read through this http://www.thebridesmother.co.uk/Media/residential-parking.pdf courtesy of Lynzer over on pepipoo
On that subject it may be worth you posting this story over there as well, if you start a new topic there and call it " Residential Parking - VCS took me to court for parking in my own space and won" that should garner some attention and get you some additional support