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Independent Appeal Service Declined
ralphicous
Posts: 23 Forumite
Hello all,
I will try to keep this short and not drag on...apologies for any grammatical errors.
Back in July 2016, we moved in to a new flat that included an allocated parking space.
The development is being looked after by two management companies, Mainstay Group for the public areas etc. and Parking and Property Management Ltd for the parking areas only.
On the 12th August a couple of my friends drove in from Norwich to see the new flat we just moved in to plus we had plans to drive up to Manchester on the same day to see a show in the evening. We all decided that we can all use my car to save petrol costs and that he can park in my allocated parking spot anyway.
So my friend had parked on my space and just before we left I called P&PM to get a temporary authorisation permit. The agent could not hand out temporary permits to visitors so consequently I was given a "Maintenance/Builder" permit.
We were away for one night and upon our return I can see that a PCN was attached to my friend's car. I took the ticket from my friend before they left because I wanted to take responsibility for it as I was the one who invited them over. I felt embarrassed enough that they were handed a PCN on my parking spot.
I went to appeal the PCN with P&PM saying that I am a new resident and that this parking space is allocated to our property.
Unfortunately they have declined my appeal and here is their statement;
"We have considered your appeal carefully and take note of the points you have raised in mitigation,however we are sorry to inform you that your appeal has not been successful. The signage at the site is clearly visible and the information on the signage informs the driver of the parking conditions at the location. Signage is prominent throughout the parking area. Signage location, size, content and font has been audited by the Independent Parking Committee.
It is the driver’s responsibility, to check for signage, check the legality and obtain any authorisation for parking before leaving their vehicle.
The fact you are a resident is not in dispute, nor is the fact you are a permit holder. However, as a permit holder you are aware of the fact a permit must be displayed and the result of non-display. As per the signage retrospective evidence of authority to park is not accepted. The parking scheme is in place due to historical parking issues at the development. The scheme offers security and exclusivity to resident bays by combating parking issues. For the basis of treating all residents unilaterally, all vehicles parking otherwise than in accordance with the conditions must be dealt with the same way. Otherwise the parking control provides no protection to the residents.
The permit displayed in the vehicle expired on the 12th August 2016 and the PCN was issued on the 13th August 2016.
It is unfortunate but the appeal is consequently dismissed.
The reasons you have put forward for parking in a clearly regulated parking area do not justify parking otherwise than in accordance with the restrictions. You will appreciate that everyone has what they regard as reasonable grounds for parking. The location is private land and as such there is a need to ensure that only vehicles conforming to the advertised restrictions are allowed to park on site. You can pay by visiting the website. We appreciate that you may not agree with our decision."
I went on to appeal this further to the Independent Appeals Services as per their advise in their letter. Almost two weeks later the IAS had unfortunately dismissed my second appeal for the same reason that no valid permit was being shown.
I was about to throw in the towel and pay the PCN but I genuinely think that what they are doing is morally wrong. I have read forums threads after forum threads saying to ignore the PCN. Whereas the Citizen's advise bureau is telling me to pay the PCN once the appeal has been dismissed by the IAS.
I am thankful that you have spent your time reading my outcry and will highly appreciate any advice you can provide.
Ultimately I am scared that this will cause so much stress that I will receive a CCJ hen eventually Bailiffs will come knocking and will be shown on "Can't Pay, We'll Take It Away!" documentary!
I am yet to read the title deeds if there are any mention of parking permits but I am keen to know if I still have a fight here?
Looking forward to hearing from you!
With much thanks!
I will try to keep this short and not drag on...apologies for any grammatical errors.
Back in July 2016, we moved in to a new flat that included an allocated parking space.
The development is being looked after by two management companies, Mainstay Group for the public areas etc. and Parking and Property Management Ltd for the parking areas only.
On the 12th August a couple of my friends drove in from Norwich to see the new flat we just moved in to plus we had plans to drive up to Manchester on the same day to see a show in the evening. We all decided that we can all use my car to save petrol costs and that he can park in my allocated parking spot anyway.
So my friend had parked on my space and just before we left I called P&PM to get a temporary authorisation permit. The agent could not hand out temporary permits to visitors so consequently I was given a "Maintenance/Builder" permit.
We were away for one night and upon our return I can see that a PCN was attached to my friend's car. I took the ticket from my friend before they left because I wanted to take responsibility for it as I was the one who invited them over. I felt embarrassed enough that they were handed a PCN on my parking spot.
I went to appeal the PCN with P&PM saying that I am a new resident and that this parking space is allocated to our property.
Unfortunately they have declined my appeal and here is their statement;
"We have considered your appeal carefully and take note of the points you have raised in mitigation,however we are sorry to inform you that your appeal has not been successful. The signage at the site is clearly visible and the information on the signage informs the driver of the parking conditions at the location. Signage is prominent throughout the parking area. Signage location, size, content and font has been audited by the Independent Parking Committee.
It is the driver’s responsibility, to check for signage, check the legality and obtain any authorisation for parking before leaving their vehicle.
The fact you are a resident is not in dispute, nor is the fact you are a permit holder. However, as a permit holder you are aware of the fact a permit must be displayed and the result of non-display. As per the signage retrospective evidence of authority to park is not accepted. The parking scheme is in place due to historical parking issues at the development. The scheme offers security and exclusivity to resident bays by combating parking issues. For the basis of treating all residents unilaterally, all vehicles parking otherwise than in accordance with the conditions must be dealt with the same way. Otherwise the parking control provides no protection to the residents.
The permit displayed in the vehicle expired on the 12th August 2016 and the PCN was issued on the 13th August 2016.
It is unfortunate but the appeal is consequently dismissed.
The reasons you have put forward for parking in a clearly regulated parking area do not justify parking otherwise than in accordance with the restrictions. You will appreciate that everyone has what they regard as reasonable grounds for parking. The location is private land and as such there is a need to ensure that only vehicles conforming to the advertised restrictions are allowed to park on site. You can pay by visiting the website. We appreciate that you may not agree with our decision."
I went on to appeal this further to the Independent Appeals Services as per their advise in their letter. Almost two weeks later the IAS had unfortunately dismissed my second appeal for the same reason that no valid permit was being shown.
I was about to throw in the towel and pay the PCN but I genuinely think that what they are doing is morally wrong. I have read forums threads after forum threads saying to ignore the PCN. Whereas the Citizen's advise bureau is telling me to pay the PCN once the appeal has been dismissed by the IAS.
I am thankful that you have spent your time reading my outcry and will highly appreciate any advice you can provide.
Ultimately I am scared that this will cause so much stress that I will receive a CCJ hen eventually Bailiffs will come knocking and will be shown on "Can't Pay, We'll Take It Away!" documentary!
I am yet to read the title deeds if there are any mention of parking permits but I am keen to know if I still have a fight here?
Looking forward to hearing from you!
With much thanks!
0
Comments
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It's an absolute nonsense. I'm sure if you look around on these forums, you'll find any number of similar cases to this. I shouldn't worry too much, as IAS as about as independent as my right arm is from my right shoulder. Citizen's Advice are pretty useless in most things, and have very little clue what they're talking about in my experience.
As stated in the "Newbies" thread, you should now be ignoring everything that isn't an official Letter Before Claim (LBCC) - if you get any letters from debt collectors, you can either ignore them (as some people suggest), or send them a terse letter stating you dispute the debt and they should refer it back to the parking company, and then ignore them.
JUST REMEMBER - YOU'VE NOT DONE ANYTHING WRONG! You've infringed on some made-up rules by a private company. You've tried to comply with the rules by displaying a permit, and in fact *HAVE*, but were forestalled in your attempts to play by their arbitrary, made-up rules by that company themselves.
ignore the comments about illegality - what you've done is, at worst "unlawful", not "illegal". If it was illegal, you'd have the constabulary to deal with, not simply a jumped-up parking invoice. Hopefully, you've still got a copy of the "builder's" permit they gave you to back up your side of the story. If so, should this go to court, you've corroborated your story and any sensible judge should chuck it out straight away.
Have a nose around the site and see what other cases you can find to give yourself a bit of confidence you aren't alone, and then stop worrying about it until you get a letter with an official court seal on it, if ever.0 -
Am I reading this right:-Parking and Property Management Ltd handed you the permit and then turned round and issued your friend with a ticket for displaying the wrong permit?
PS the CAB are idiots so please do not pay; since you were neither the driver nor the registered keeper you have no liability.0 -
What does your lease sayv regarding the allocated space?
Who hired the parking company?
Why are you displaying a permit to park in your own space?
Do you have other permits for other things such as opening a window after 10pm?From the Plain Language Commission:
"The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"0 -
Am I reading this right:-Parking and Property Management Ltd handed you the permit and then turned round and issued your friend with a ticket for displaying the wrong permit?
PS the CAB are idiots so please do not pay; since you were neither the driver nor the registered keeper you have no liability.
Hi thanks for your reply!
I have my own resident's permit for my car. But I called P&PM to authorise my friend's car to be parked at my space so they gave me a temporary code to be put on the dashboard. But I was not made aware that the permit was only for 1 day. So the PCN was attached when we arrived back the evening of the 13th August, stating "No Valid Permit Shown" .
I did not want to cause inconvenience to my friend so I have already emailed P&PM to chase me for anything regarding this PCN. Yikes... on hindsight, I should not have done that?0 -
Typical of the IAS protecting their own members.
THEY SAY:
"The permit displayed in the vehicle expired on the 12th August 2016 and the PCN was issued on the 13th August 2016.
It is unfortunate but the appeal is consequently dismissed."
How much rubbish can you get .... RUBBISH.
AND YOU SAY
"Ultimately I am scared that this will cause so much stress that I will receive a CCJ hen eventually Bailiffs will come knocking and will be shown on "Can't Pay, We'll Take It Away!" documentary!"
Please understand that the whole IPC/IAS system is a sham.
You did your best which can prove so you tried.
Have you spoken to the landlord/owner of the site. If not, do so and ask them to get it cancelled.
So what happens next ? The PPC will probably send you a gloating letter demanding payment. You ignore it, then probably rubbish debt collectors will issue wild threats that simply cannot perform, you ignore them.
Then if the PPC wants to persue they will use a solicitor and it will probably be Gladstones.
How do we know that, we have seen this hundreds of times on here
So you know, if it is Gladstones, they own the IPC/IAS and this is the final scam of incest.
They may not issue court proceedings as right now Gladstones are being zapped in court.
If this happens, come back here for help
If it goes to court it is a 50-50, does not mean they win.
If you lost, then the judge will direct about payment and you have up to 28 days to pay with no entries such as a CCJ
Only if you fail to pay does a CCJ GET entered.
NO DOOR KNOCKERS -- NO BAILIFFS.
Just sit back and relax, it does not happen overnight.
The whole IPC/IAS/Gladstones scam is currently under investigation by the SRA
Just get ready for junk mail from these vermin and if it follows through to court, its still no big deal, just come back here.
If you get this junk mail PLEASE DO NOT BE TEMPTED TO CONTACT THEM0 -
Are you saying that the permit ran out at midnight, but the car was seen after that time?
A nice little scam for the ppc.0 -
IIMU that the relationship between Gladstones and the IPC/IAS is being investigated by the SRA. Complain to the SRA that Gladstones are acting as judge and Jury.
http://www.sra.org.uk/consumers/problems/report-solicitor.pageYou never know how far you can go until you go too far.0 -
If you're neither the keeper nor the driver there can't be any case against you. I'm bolshy so I'd tell them to be damned and issue court papers or FRO. If they don't issue papers in 21 days, then you will draw the conclusion they have no case and you then consider it closed.
Everything in writing - you need to have a paper trail should it get to courtPlease note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .
I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.
Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.#Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street0 -
It's an absolute nonsense. I'm sure if you look around on these forums, you'll find any number of similar cases to this. I shouldn't worry too much, as IAS as about as independent as my right arm is from my right shoulder. Citizen's Advice are pretty useless in most things, and have very little clue what they're talking about in my experience.
As stated in the "Newbies" thread, you should now be ignoring everything that isn't an official Letter Before Claim (LBCC) - if you get any letters from debt collectors, you can either ignore them (as some people suggest), or send them a terse letter stating you dispute the debt and they should refer it back to the parking company, and then ignore them.
JUST REMEMBER - YOU'VE NOT DONE ANYTHING WRONG! You've infringed on some made-up rules by a private company. You've tried to comply with the rules by displaying a permit, and in fact *HAVE*, but were forestalled in your attempts to play by their arbitrary, made-up rules by that company themselves.
ignore the comments about illegality - what you've done is, at worst "unlawful", not "illegal". If it was illegal, you'd have the constabulary to deal with, not simply a jumped-up parking invoice. Hopefully, you've still got a copy of the "builder's" permit they gave you to back up your side of the story. If so, should this go to court, you've corroborated your story and any sensible judge should chuck it out straight away.
Have a nose around the site and see what other cases you can find to give yourself a bit of confidence you aren't alone, and then stop worrying about it until you get a letter with an official court seal on it, if ever.
Many thanks for your reply!
That's what I tried to point out to the operator and the IAS that I have done nothing wrong. They don't seem to understand the core argument that it is MY own space.
I forgot to mention that I called P&PM ltd after the fist appeal was rejected and spoke to their customer service rep and attempted to reason with them. They were adamant that I should pay - and showed ZERO empathy. Regardless of my politeness over the phone she ended up raising her voice which made me angry so I told her that I will not pay the PCN what ever happens. I wish I had remembered to research MSE before... thanks for your time again! I will definitely have a look around for similar cases.0 -
Typical of the IAS protecting their own members.
THEY SAY:
"The permit displayed in the vehicle expired on the 12th August 2016 and the PCN was issued on the 13th August 2016.
It is unfortunate but the appeal is consequently dismissed."
How much rubbish can you get .... RUBBISH.
AND YOU SAY
"Ultimately I am scared that this will cause so much stress that I will receive a CCJ hen eventually Bailiffs will come knocking and will be shown on "Can't Pay, We'll Take It Away!" documentary!"
Please understand that the whole IPC/IAS system is a sham.
You did your best which can prove so you tried.
Have you spoken to the landlord/owner of the site. If not, do so and ask them to get it cancelled.
So what happens next ? The PPC will probably send you a gloating letter demanding payment. You ignore it, then probably rubbish debt collectors will issue wild threats that simply cannot perform, you ignore them.
Then if the PPC wants to persue they will use a solicitor and it will probably be Gladstones.
How do we know that, we have seen this hundreds of times on here
So you know, if it is Gladstones, they own the IPC/IAS and this is the final scam of incest.
They may not issue court proceedings as right now Gladstones are being zapped in court.
If this happens, come back here for help
If it goes to court it is a 50-50, does not mean they win.
If you lost, then the judge will direct about payment and you have up to 28 days to pay with no entries such as a CCJ
Only if you fail to pay does a CCJ GET entered.
NO DOOR KNOCKERS -- NO BAILIFFS.
Just sit back and relax, it does not happen overnight.
The whole IPC/IAS/Gladstones scam is currently under investigation by the SRA
Just get ready for junk mail from these vermin and if it follows through to court, its still no big deal, just come back here.
If you get this junk mail PLEASE DO NOT BE TEMPTED TO CONTACT THEM
Huge thanks for your reply!!!
I am glad I went here as I was razor close in paying the PCN last night when the IAS dismissed my appeal. I felt defeated and hopeless but have since gained confidence to fight back! Once again, Thank you!0
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