Hire company paid private PCN against their own terms and conditions (ARVAL again!)

Fruitcake

Computersaysno wrote: »

I know someone who took a hireco to court for this very reason...and ended up £200+ better off for their trouble!!!


In the words of Corporal Jones...they don't like it up 'em!!!

It would be useful for the OP to have that court case number.

DJBenson

Fruitcake wrote: »

Not having advertising consent for signs over a certain size is a criminal offence. Trading Standards should be informed, as well as local press that a parking company is breaking the law. Since UK law prohibits anyone from profiting from crime, any monies made by the parking scammers should be refunded to the victims.

The local council should also be required to investigate and instruct criminal proceedings should the allegations be confirmed, and the scammers not allowed to operate until advertising consent been approved. This application can of course be contested by local residents.

Is there anywhere (or anyone here) who knows the specifics - there's a recent case of Aldi using ANPR via Parking Eye with no consent and they applied for it retrospectively and claimed any tickets issued prior to consent still stood as the application was indeed retrospective.

So on the specifics;

The ANPR system is installed on a pole which is used only for the ANPR camera's - would such a structure need planning permission? What about if it was previously a light or flag pole (unlikely) but would some form of change of use apply?

You mention specific size for the signage, does anyone know the actual dimensions that would trigger a requirement for consent?

From the time I've spent today looking into this, it's not clear at all what the requirements are for both parts of the scam artists setup.

Interestingly, the planning enforcement officer hinted at the other part of the setup without me guiding him, I specifically asked if there was planning consent for the ANPR camera's and he responded "no" but added the bit about "related items" from which I presume he means signage and extend my assumptions to "he knows exactly where I'm going with this".

The missus is taking the child to yoga tomorrow so we'll be parking here again and I'm going along to get lots of photos of the site.

DJBenson

From the gov.uk site, I found a PDF which has this in;

Class 2(A) permits notices or signs to be displayed on buildings or land as
a means of identification, direction or warning. These would include:
● the street number or name of a dwelling-house
● a field-gate sign saying ‘Please shut the gate’
● a warning notice saying ‘Beware of the dog’
● a private sign saying ‘No parking please’.
Advertisements in Class 2(A) must not exceed 0.3 of a square metre in area.
Illumination is not allowed.

So, that looks like a sign (the scammers terms and conditions sign) on private land (the car park) cannot exceed 0.3M squared without consent and it cannot be lit?

0.3M is quite small isn't it?! I'll take the tape measure with me too

Fruitcake

DJBenson wrote: »

From the gov.uk site, I found a PDF which has this in;

Class 2(A) permits notices or signs to be displayed on buildings or land as
a means of identification, direction or warning. These would include:
● the street number or name of a dwelling-house
● a field-gate sign saying ‘Please shut the gate’
● a warning notice saying ‘Beware of the dog’
● a private sign saying ‘No parking please’.
Advertisements in Class 2(A) must not exceed 0.3 of a square metre in area.
Illumination is not allowed.

So, that looks like a sign (the parking sign) on private land (the car park) cannot exceed 0.3M squared without consent and it cannot be lit?

I believe that is the requirement for advertising consent, over 0.3m2.

ANPR cameras on a pole would need planning permission, but is not a criminal offence. Not having advertising consent is.

PE have been known to tell lies. Councils and landowners sometimes receive financial incentives from private parking companies. They may put spin on words, but the law is the law.

DJBenson

The one at the entrance is definitely over 0.3m2 (ANPR rig in the background)


These also look bigger, certainly on the height


Will measure them tomorrow - spending a bit of time wandering around will also confirm if it is exclusively ANPR or if they have "humans" too.

Coupon-mad

That's an interesting PDF, not seen that before.

DJBenson

Dude I'm on one now

Fruitcake

DJBenson wrote: »

Dude I'm on one now

Dudettes are also available on this thread.

Fruitcake

Coupon-mad wrote: »

That's an interesting PDF, not seen that before.

Especially this bit.

Illegal advertisements.

Anyone who displays an advertisement, or uses an advertisement site, or knowingly permits someone else to do so, without the consent required for it is acting illegally. It is then immediately open to the planning authority to bring a prosecution in the Magistrates’ Court for an offence under section 224 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. But, unless an offence is especially flagrant or repeated, the planning authority may not initially consider it necessary to prosecute for an advertisement offence. Instead, they may invite the advertiser to apply for the consent they believe he needs, and, if consent is refused, there will be a right of appeal to the Secretary of State.

DJBenson

Live on site for MSE:

All the signs are larger than the prescribed maximum and also appear to be less than satisfactory from a compliance perspective. They are all a minimum of 9 feet from the ground and I would hazard a guess the font size used for the terms is between 20 and 30 points. I can read it if I stand directly underneath and I am over 6ft tall.

The terms are also interesting in that they read;
If you (a) park for longer than the period paid for; or (b) do not pay within 10 minutes of arrival; or (c) you do not enter your full and exact registration number when making your payment, you agree to pay the standard fee of £100 per day to Civil Enforcements LTD.

Is it not the case that I have ten minutes to decide whether to park or not rather than you must pay within 10 minutes?