Hire company paid private PCN against their own terms and conditions (ARVAL again!)

Half_way

Will get back later, in the meantime under no circumstances call this a fine when dealing with the lease company, call it a speculative invoice.

The_Slithy_Tove

They're mixing an awful lot of things together, and treating them as the same, which is wrong.

They mention Bus Lane Penalties and Parking Charges in the same sentence, but they are utterly different. The former is controlled by statute law which defines the whole process. The latter is an invoice from a private company with very little legal control.

As for the last bit, they MUST pass on speeding fines (and other such things for which the police issue a S.172 request for driver details), as it's the driver who is very much responsible. For things like (council) parking tickets, and (I believe) bus lane contraventions, congestion charge, Dartford crossing charges, it's the vehicle's keeper who is responsible, which is why a rental/lease company will pay up before the fee goes up.

Fruitcake

DJBenson wrote: »

Email received from ARVAL this morning in response to my 'do not add this to my DD or I'll reclaim it' email;

===================
Fines Team <Fines.Team@arval.co.uk>
Attachments10:41 (41 minutes ago)

to me
Dear <Removed>,

Thank you for your email.

Please can you keep us updated on the progress of your appeal, I will request your September invoice be placed on hold until your appeal is decided.

The reason we pay parking charges and bus lane offences on behalf of the customer, is to reduce any risk of escalation which could lead to increased costs to you. To offer greater flexibility and control we can change the account policy to enable the customer to pay or appeal penalty charges directly to the issuer.

To enable you to do this, we would amend the policy to ‘Change of Address’ which means that instead of paying penalty charge notices (PCN’s) - we will send a copy of the customer contract to the issuer, who will redirect the notice directly for payment or appeal. The administration fee for this process is £12.50 + VAT per penalty charge

If you would like us to make this change to the account, we need consent to pass on customer data. If you (the customer) would like to pay penalty charges directly, please complete the attached Change of Address form and send a scanned copy back to fines.team@arval.co.uk , with the subject ‘Change of Address’.


Important

Any parking/bus lane charges that are referred back to Arval for payment, due to non payment by the customer, will be paid for by Arval and recharged.

Exceptions

Please note, we can not redirect congestion charges as the authorities will not allow us to transfer liability to someone else. We will continue to pay these and invoice them through to you.



Kind regards
===================

I've told them NOT to put my invoice on hold and to charge me as per my agreement.

Also, is it not contradictory that they can (must) pass on speeding fines but can choose to pay parking tickets unless I pay their 12.50 redirection charge each time?!

Dear stupid hire company,

You have denied me the right to appeal by paying this speculative invoice instead of following the BVRLA guidelines. I do not understand why you are asking me about the progress of an appeal that is not possible because of your actions.

This invoice is not covered by the Ts and Cs of my hire agreement with you. I do not understand why you have mentioned bus lane and penalty charges since this parking invoice is neither.

If you charge me for your incompetence I will commence criminal proceedings for theft against you.

Yours,

An ex customer.

DJBenson

This is getting interesting

=========================
Fines Team <Fines.Team@arval.co.uk>
10:47 (21 minutes ago)

to me
Dear <Removed>,

Thank you for your email.

The vehicle services invoice has been requested to be placed on hold, the rental invoice will still be deducted. Please advise if you wish Arval to release the vehicle services invoice?

Section 10.1/11.1 of the customer contract with Arval stipulate;

In respect of any responsibility, claims, liabilities, losses, damages or expenses, including legal fees, and any liability resulting from legislation for the payment of fines or penalties for parking, driving or similar offences or contraventions in connection with the Vehicles (the “Liability”): (a) Arval has no responsibility for the Liability; (b) the Hirer accepts all responsibility for the Liability including taking all appropriate action; and (c) the Hirer indemnifies ARVAL and holds ARVAL harmless against the Liability. Arval shall be entitled to charge the Hirer a reasonable administration fee for any work carried out or documentation processed relating to the Liability

Responsibilities, claims, liabilities, losses, damages or expenses, including legal fees can be looked at in isolation to any liability resulting from legislation for the payment of fines or penalties for parking, driving or similar offences or contraventions in connection with the Vehicles. A customer is responsible for demands which fall into either part of the clause which private parking charges do.

Arval has acted in accordance with the terms of the Agreement. Our right to discharge liabilities relating to the use of the vehicle is explained within this email. The clause doesn’t only apply to fines or penalties it applies to any responsibility, claims, liabilities, losses, damages or expenses, including legal fees.

Arval regards itself as in business to provide cars to its customers and not to involve itself in validity of notice disputes (legal or otherwise) with 3rd parties. We do not know who our customers permit to drive their vehicles, how they choose to drive them, where they choose to park or who they wish to enter into disputes with. With this in mind and in order to stop costs escalating while demands are either ignored or disputed, we pay any sums demanded on behalf of the driver immediately on receipt and then invoice our customer for the sum demanded together with our administration fee of £12.50 (+ VAT), which clause 10.1/11.1 allows us to do and which the Customer agreed to when they signed our terms and conditions.

Outside of the customers contractual relationship with Arval, your are entitled to try to recover any sums that they have been charged incorrectly directly with whoever you wish to have a dispute with.

However, to offer greater flexibility and control we can change the account policy to enable the customer to pay or appeal penalty charges directly to the issuer – which my colleague has previously offered.


Kind Regards

<Removed>
=========================

The fatal blow for me is that the aforementioned sections 10.1 / 11.1 do not tally between their email and the electronic copy of the hire agreement which I signed when I took out the lease.

There is similar wording but it is not exactly what they are quoting, neither does it specifically (or implicitly) state that they are within their rights to pay the charges and charge them back to me. Both the quoted text and the text in my contract says that they have no responsibility yet they paid the PCN - sounds like they took responsibility to me!

Fruitcake

They still don't get the fact that there never was a penalty charge to pay, so they had no reason to pay it, nor any reason to offer you a change in service requirement.

This is the whole crux of the matter. You need to write back and explain in words of one syllable that there was no penalty charge, that there is nothing in your contract to cover invoices from private scammers, that they had no right to pay it and thus deny you the right of appeal, that they have consequently breached the BVRLA guidelines that tells them to pass private scamming invoices to the hirer, and that demanding money from you is a criminal offence.

As far as this bit is concerned, they are saying you can try to recover a sum from them (Arval) because you are being charged incorrectly by Arval themselves.

DJBenson wrote: »

Outside of the customers contractual relationship with Arval, your are entitled to try to recover any sums that they have been charged incorrectly directly with whoever you wish to have a dispute with.

Kind Regards

<Removed>

DJBenson

I've sent an email to the parking company's appeals email address explaining the situation but I doubt that will get me anywhere (besides, they respond in writing and that will be back to ARVAL and not me as ARVAL bypassed me in the process - wonder if that means ARVAL will want 12.50 + VAT to pass the letter on to me - which coincidentally is NOT in my agreement as they inform me )

The situation with ARVAL was getting a bit ridiculous so I've told them that I won't be entering into any further dialogue by email and that they should respond in writing to my letter which has gone to them in the post this morning.

I've also told them that they must invoice me for my hire charges but not for the invoice from the PCN - it looks like that's what they intended to do once I told them not to invoice me the charges as they can put the PCN invoice on hold whilst still invoicing the monthly rental so that's fine by me.

Edna_Basher

DJBenson wrote: »

Both the quoted text and the text in my contract says that they have no responsibility yet they paid the PCN - sounds like they took responsibility to me!

Indeed; Arval have failed to comply with their own terms and conditions - they should not have paid the parking charge on your behalf because that's not what was agreed.

With regard to Arval's "reasonable administration fee" in respect of claims and liabilities, if Arval had looked at CEL's Notice to Keeper they would have seen that CEL were not seeking to rely on POFA to claim keeper liability (i.e. Arval could never be liable for the charge).

Our company has an arrangement with our lease vehicle suppliers such that for each PCN they receive:

• they transfer liability for the PCN to us (as per BVRLA guidelines)
• we challenge the follow-up Notice to Hirer when we receive this from the PPC
• when the PCN finally gets cancelled, the hire company refunds their admin fee.

If you had been given the chance to manage the PCN yourself, it would have been quite straightforward for you to get the charge cancelled i.e. no valid claim / no liability = no cause for Arval to levy an admin fee. I think that in the circumstances, you should reasonably expect Arval to cancel their admin fee.

Coupon-mad

Arval have known this for years and often back down. I recall pepipoo threads like this one:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=102551

This one about 'Sixt' is legendary:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=62531

Don't forget to ask Arval whether they paid it because they mistakenly thought CEL PCNs could hold a keeper (or owner) liable. CEL cannot hold anyone but the DRIVER liable so this was rather like Arval paying your paper bill for you if the newsagent wrote a letter to Arval having a moan...

Rebecca_a

Hey I've just had a six month battle with mine. Go to your bank if the money has been taken.

DJBenson

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Arval have known this for years and often back down. I recall pepipoo threads like this one:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=102551

This one about 'Sixt' is legendary:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=62531

Don't forget to ask Arval whether they paid it because they mistakenly thought CEL PCNs could hold a keeper (or owner) liable. CEL cannot hold anyone but the DRIVER liable so this was rather like Arval paying your paper bill for you if the newsagent wrote a letter to Arval having a moan...

The person in the first link has posted their agreement details and lo-and-behold they are the same as mine :beer: