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Labour want to ignore the will of the people...

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Comments

  • mayonnaise wrote: »

    I stand corrected.

    Still think he's an idiot though :)
  • sann420
    sann420 Posts: 122 Forumite
    Seventh Anniversary 100 Posts Combo Breaker
    Before invoking Article50 I hope that the govt will put the plan before the parliament for a vote. At the moment all the brexiteers are just wishy washy about what will happen. Borris says he doesnt mind immigration. Nigel says I never promised 350m for NHS etc.

    Tory govt should form up atleast a high level plan of what they want to achieve from Brexit and then get it approved by the parliament before invoking A50. Otherwise its sheer madness to jump off an albeit sinking ship into deep ocean...
  • CLAPTON
    CLAPTON Posts: 41,865 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    sann420 wrote: »
    Before invoking Article50 I hope that the govt will put the plan before the parliament for a vote. At the moment all the brexiteers are just wishy washy about what will happen. Borris says he doesnt mind immigration. Nigel says I never promised 350m for NHS etc.

    Tory govt should form up atleast a high level plan of what they want to achieve from Brexit and then get it approved by the parliament before invoking A50. Otherwise its sheer madness to jump off an albeit sinking ship into deep ocean...

    the majority of MPs are against leaving : the mjority of voters are in favour of brexit
  • mrginge
    mrginge Posts: 4,843 Forumite
    No - if you have no alternative course of action to accepting whatever is offered to you, the other party has no need to give you anything at all. Cameron had no mandate to Leave previously so he was just ignored, because the Brussels elite expected a Remain vote anyway. Seeing no adverse consequences to giving him nothing, that's what he got.

    The advantage of the above approach would have been that he did have such a mandate. If Brussels did tell him to jog on, or issued the kind of insults, scoldings and threats that we actually have seen, and still offered nothing, then he reminds them that we have voted to Leave unless we rethink. None of the vitriol from the EU since Brexit is because the EU thinks Britain will lose out. It's because they think they will. That focuses their minds wonderfully on their own interests.

    I don't disagree that the question was not ideal. But it was put that way because certain people thought it was scary enough to put the electorate off.

    The problem with a Stay / Leave if... question is that it would have been an even greater result for the latter option. That's not what the govt wanted.
  • You yourself said that you didn't care what ideas and views were put forward in the pre referendum debates, your mind was already made up, which only goes to prove my point.

    If there were to be another referendum on HOW you would have to listen to formulate an opinion.

    You could have a brexit where nothing changes, or you could have a brexit where too much changes. The terms and conditions of leaving are far more important than the actual leaving of the EU.
  • mayonnaise
    mayonnaise Posts: 3,690 Forumite
    sann420 wrote: »
    Before invoking Article50 I hope that the govt will put the plan before the parliament for a vote. At the moment all the brexiteers are just wishy washy about what will happen. Borris says he doesnt mind immigration. Nigel says I never promised 350m for NHS etc.

    Tory govt should form up atleast a high level plan of what they want to achieve from Brexit and then get it approved by the parliament before invoking A50. Otherwise its sheer madness to jump off an albeit sinking ship into deep ocean...

    Absolutely. We had a parliamentary democracy for many hundreds of years now and although not perfect, now is not the time to override it and effectively switch to mob rule.
    Don't blame me, I voted Remain.
  • p1212
    p1212 Posts: 153 Forumite
    sann420 wrote: »
    Before invoking Article50 I hope that the govt will put the plan before the parliament for a vote. At the moment all the brexiteers are just wishy washy about what will happen. Borris says he doesnt mind immigration. Nigel says I never promised 350m for NHS etc.

    Tory govt should form up atleast a high level plan of what they want to achieve from Brexit and then get it approved by the parliament before invoking A50. Otherwise its sheer madness to jump off an albeit sinking ship into deep ocean...

    Cameron said multiple times - including one day before the vote - that he will stay even in case of a leave vote and will call Article 50 on the very next day. He was the first jumping the ship, the leader of the remainers.

    What plan you want? We can have million plans if the EU does not agree. The vote was about calling article 50, not making plans for 4 years then have an election where all party who has a chance of winning will campaign with second referendum.

    By the way you don't have to worry, we will never leave EU, we will make "plans", none of those will be good enough, then german and french elections, EU parliament elections, then we will have our own elections, why would we be so rude to leave the mess to another party, so we will wait until 2020. Then second referendum with the winner party.
  • N1AK
    N1AK Posts: 2,903 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts
    wymondham wrote: »
    Why does he think he needs another vote - shall we keep going until the UK electorate vote his way? That would be an interesting way to vote at elections and I'm pretty sure its how dictators work? That's not very democratic is it?

    That's exactly what Farage wanted if the vote didn't go his way, strange how the people banding words like dictator around weren't clamouring about how bad and anti-democratic the idea was then...

    Let's take an extreme example shall we. On the 23rd June a 2% majority voted in favour of leave. If by Christmas there was a 15% majority in favour of remain, and that majority stayed constant for 6 months, how exactly is it more democratic for our representatives to:
    • Refuse to act in our best interests as our chosen representatives
    • Refuse to act because their constituents used to believe something but no longer do

    Now we can debate all day long what the line should be, but only someone completely blinded by their desire to get what they want, could hold the position that a line doesn't exist.
    Having a signature removed for mentioning the removal of a previous signature. Blackwhite bellyfeel double plus good...
  • mrginge
    mrginge Posts: 4,843 Forumite
    N1AK wrote: »
    That's exactly what Farage wanted if the vote didn't go his way, strange how the people banding words like dictator around weren't clamouring about how bad and anti-democratic the idea was then...

    Let's take an extreme example shall we. On the 23rd June a 2% majority voted in favour of leave. If by Christmas there was a 15% majority in favour of remain, and that majority stayed constant for 6 months, how exactly is it more democratic for our representatives to:
    • Refuse to act in our best interests as our chosen representatives
    • Refuse to act because their constituents used to believe something but no longer do

    Now we can debate all day long what the line should be, but only someone completely blinded by their desire to get what they want, could hold the position that a line doesn't exist.


    And if by Christmas there is a 4% majority in favour of leave, will you want another vote in March to check again?
    How about we have general elections every six months so we can check that people who voted Tory first off haven't changed their minds after the queens speech.

    Honestly it's just embarrassing now.
  • AnotherJoe
    AnotherJoe Posts: 19,622 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Fifth Anniversary Name Dropper Photogenic
    edited 24 August 2016 at 11:31AM
    sann420 wrote: »
    Before invoking Article50 I hope that the govt will put the plan before the parliament for a vote. At the moment all the brexiteers are just wishy washy about what will happen. Borris says he doesnt mind immigration. Nigel says I never promised 350m for NHS etc.

    Tory govt should form up atleast a high level plan of what they want to achieve from Brexit and then get it approved by the parliament before invoking A50. Otherwise its sheer madness to jump off an albeit sinking ship into deep ocean...

    They dont need to do anything before invoking A50, just before enacting it. Because the terms will still not be known by time of invoking. They probably wont even be known except in broadest outline, before enacting. This is going to be a 5-10 year exit process, its in everyone's interests otherwise the UK will pull down the Eurozone with it and even the maddest Eurocrat doesnt want that.

    And the second "referendum" will in effect be do you vote Conservative with these terms for Brexit, or one of the two different labour parties, the Socialist Workers Right On Party (undecided re Brexit), or The Europhile Nu-New Labour Party (Europe at any price).
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