Can I ask bank to block cash back at till option?

jumeriah64

Would ordinarily agree but a lot more complex than you (correctly by the way) make it sound. Consider it a bit like decommissioning a nuclear reactor. The goal is clear but the history, relationships and precedence are complex to say the least. But boiled down to basics, it is exactly as you mention.

Indeed the cash advance is a good option. We have partly done this. Same person is also paid a fee (I know, it sounds mad) and we have changed this from ATM withdrawal to a direct debit each month.

We have provided a file system divided by month and clear instruction to keep and store ALL receipts. It appears this is happening but I suspect the debit card/cashback may be a new loophole developing.

The cash advance and pre-paid card are excellent ideas. I think we could sell those and withdraw the debit card. There are some geographical issues but nevertheless. And indeed we were just discussing a credit card that could be an option.

Many thanks for those suggestions, all definite food for thought.

jumeriah64

Apologies Masonic, I used the wrong reply format....last post should have been in quoted reply to you. Thanks again

shortcrust

qsk wrote: »

Are you sure of that? I once used Santander debit card for cash back reward and cashback potion was deducted from the final eligible amount. So there must be a way for bank to know that the transaction has a cashback portion.

My guess is that the banks know it's cashback when the transaction's processed but not when it's initially authorised. Of course smaller retailers might not itemise when they put card transactions through so the bank never knows. Getting cashback from my corner shop is a great way of earning my 5% cashback from TSB.

jumeriah64

Thanks Shortcrust.

In fact there are a very limited number of retailers that are used in this manner in our situation.....in the main these are Sainsbury, Pound-land and Co-op.

I'm not even sure Pound-land do cash back but fairly sure Co-op does.

Knowing that said person could be getting cash back is a grim thought. A few years back I would have said they were not bright enough to do that however having seen what has been 'acquired' over that time clearly they are brighter than me!

glentoran99

qsk wrote: »

Are you sure of that? I once used Santander debit card for cash back reward and cashback potion was deducted from the final eligible amount. So there must be a way for bank to know that the transaction has a cashback portion.

You are correct, but for the purposes of the OP question AFAIK its not possible for a cashback portion to be blocked

xylophone

Are you not condoning abuse by allowing this to go unchecked?

Is the relative capable of granting you Power of Attorney?

jumeriah64

Hi Xylophone....again as mentioned in a few posts this would be a better way to go for sure but life is not as binary as that in this instance.

The scale of the issue has greatly reduced by careful process management but there is still scope for improvement.

Indeed we have PoA status but having legal powers is not enough when long standing relationships and established practices have formed. Indeed it's not necessarily that the relative has not known about it but has been emotionally and practically disinclined not to confront it. Very difficult.

As I say we've had a lot of success reducing the scale from the excessive to the manageable. But we still have work to do hence the cash back discussion....we are talking 10's of pounds now not 1000's. Thanks

alanq

1) As has been said it is a breach of the banks Ts&Cs for anyone to use someone else’s bank card even with their permission. This needs to stop.


2) "We have a situation where an aledged friend of a disabled relative has been using a debit card to withdraw significant amounts of cash. A lot of cash. "
How certain are you that it is the “friend” who is doing the shopping that has withdrawn the cash? Could there not be another “friend”, family member or other person with access who has done this?


3) Does the relative have capacity? Could they have made the withdrawals or asked someone to withdraw cash for them? Perhaps the relative needs cash for services such as window cleaner, hairdresser or whatever. If the relative has capacity they have the right to make their own decisions even bad ones. They will not be obliged to tell you about these withdrawals.


4) "Indeed we have PoA status but having legal powers ..."
If the relative lacks capacity and you are permitting their card to continue to be used by someone else then you could be responsible for the losses.


5) "However there are still systematic supermarket transactions for modest amounts. My concern is now that only small purchases are being made but it's become a vehicle to obtain cash in smaller amounts. "
I would expect the cashback to show on the till receipts. Anyway, if you have access to the receipts and to bank statements you can see if the charge is greater than for the goods shown on the receipt. The only loophole I can see is if relative is paying for goods that they do not receive.


6) "we have changed this from ATM withdrawal to a direct debit each month."
How can the “friend” set up a direct debit unless they are running a business? Did you mean to write that you have set up a standing order?


7) If you go the prepaid card route I suggest that the account is in your relative’s name and the “friend” gets a second card for that account. That way you have access to the statements and can see where the money was spent if not on what and the money does not legally belong to the “friend”. Of course there is nothing to stop the card being misused within the limits of the balance on the account but as only the “friend” will have the card and PIN it would be clear who made the transactions.


As no credit is involved I believe that this will not create a financial link between your relative and “friend” but this would need to be checked.

8) Is the disabled relative elderly? Financial exploitation is a form of abuse. You may be able to get advice from Action On Elder Abuse.

jumeriah64

alanq wrote: »

1) As has been said it is a breach of the banks Ts&Cs for anyone to use someone else’s bank card even with their permission. This needs to stop.


2) "We have a situation where an aledged friend of a disabled relative has been using a debit card to withdraw significant amounts of cash. A lot of cash. "
How certain are you that it is the “friend” who is doing the shopping that has withdrawn the cash? Could there not be another “friend”, family member or other person with access who has done this?


3) Does the relative have capacity? Could they have made the withdrawals or asked someone to withdraw cash for them? Perhaps the relative needs cash for services such as window cleaner, hairdresser or whatever. If the relative has capacity they have the right to make their own decisions even bad ones. They will not be obliged to tell you about these withdrawals.


4) "Indeed we have PoA status but having legal powers ..."
If the relative lacks capacity and you are permitting their card to continue to be used by someone else then you could be responsible for the losses.


5) "However there are still systematic supermarket transactions for modest amounts. My concern is now that only small purchases are being made but it's become a vehicle to obtain cash in smaller amounts. "
I would expect the cashback to show on the till receipts. Anyway, if you have access to the receipts and to bank statements you can see if the charge is greater than for the goods shown on the receipt. The only loophole I can see is if relative is paying for goods that they do not receive.


6) "we have changed this from ATM withdrawal to a direct debit each month."
How can the “friend” set up a direct debit unless they are running a business? Did you mean to write that you have set up a standing order?


7) If you go the prepaid card route I suggest that the account is in your relative’s name and the “friend” gets a second card for that account. That way you have access to the statements and can see where the money was spent if not on what and the money does not legally belong to the “friend”. Of course there is nothing to stop the card being misused within the limits of the balance on the account but as only the “friend” will have the card and PIN it would be clear who made the transactions.


As no credit is involved I believe that this will not create a financial link between your relative and “friend” but this would need to be checked.

Hi there and many thanks for the comprehensive reply. As I say the focus on on process not ethics and absolutes.

I agree 100% that in a more clinical situation a more definitive course of actions would be highly desirable (and by the way that's also the world I choose to live in). But it's not that situation.

There is evidence to support the view that the relative knew it was occurring, and at times maybe has approved it, albeit maybe under some duress. Certainly now we have put 95% of it into check via processes, then it's clear that the person concerned seems greatly more relaxed and I think happier.

At the same time we would not want to impress upon the relative the lengths we have gone to to put the toothpaste back in the tube.....I think this is in fact known, but not something we would care to embarrass with, no matter how clear and obvious it would seem to most folk....is about result but also sensitively.

Regarding your points mentioned:

2. This is absolutely quite possible. Without going into the small print too much this is a possible scenario. There is a younger member who could well be putting pressure on the supposed friend. We are keeping an eye on this as well.

3. Yes the relative has full capacity but also what we might call good natured/a soft touch. And indeed the friend has been empowered over time to make withdrawals and transactions. That freedom is what has been gradually and systematically abused and that means a lighter touch to fix....which as I mention we have largely done but are refining until the tap fully turns off.

4. It could be the case but there is capacity as we mention. The reality is that direct confrontation on cold facts would alienate too many folks including the relative.. Folks reading this will need to trust judgement that it simply is not that simple.

5. Yes a proportion of the 'shop' is valid...that's not in question.The scale of it maybe and certainly the possible cash back. We have made abundantly clear that there is to be zero cash withdrawal and indeed this has fallen to very low levels. My focus is on managing the transaction by bank record, restriction of cash back facility, using alternative cards etc.

6. Yes we set up a DD or SO (I forget precisely) so that the theoretical fee to support the relative is at least a valid and measurable transaction that shows on a bank statement. Previously the friend was empowered by the relative to withdraw cash to cover the 'work'. Needless to say the withdrawals were significantly higher than the agreed fee. But whilst we can certainly question the value of this fee, this works well at limiting the abuse and making auditable.

7. Yes this sounds a possible. We may even allocate a supplementary card from our credit card. Then we could manage and audit it even more precisely but in reality the bank statement is very suditable....only the cash bank element is not. In fairness the use of the debit card is eliminating the previously significant use of the ATM down to only very occasional usage. But this is my focus area.

Again I agree I would like to yield the big stick but to do here would be destructive and for the wrong folks as well. So a funnelled process control is the way to go. If we can manage the cash back from otherwise authorized shops at super market then we are nearly home and dry.

There is of course still the discussion of what is bought at the supermarket and we know for sure that this is also hugely abused. We will work on that as well.....we are boiling the frog slowly, not whacking it with a large stick.

And indeed the value of the fee paid each month which is highly questionable but one step at a time.

Appreciate your considered response. It helps to introduce clarity into our thinking for sure.

All the best

jumeriah64

alanq wrote: »

1) As has been said it is a breach of the banks Ts&Cs for anyone to use someone else’s bank card even with their permission. This needs to stop.


2) "We have a situation where an aledged friend of a disabled relative has been using a debit card to withdraw significant amounts of cash. A lot of cash. "
How certain are you that it is the “friend” who is doing the shopping that has withdrawn the cash? Could there not be another “friend”, family member or other person with access who has done this?


3) Does the relative have capacity? Could they have made the withdrawals or asked someone to withdraw cash for them? Perhaps the relative needs cash for services such as window cleaner, hairdresser or whatever. If the relative has capacity they have the right to make their own decisions even bad ones. They will not be obliged to tell you about these withdrawals.


4) "Indeed we have PoA status but having legal powers ..."
If the relative lacks capacity and you are permitting their card to continue to be used by someone else then you could be responsible for the losses.


5) "However there are still systematic supermarket transactions for modest amounts. My concern is now that only small purchases are being made but it's become a vehicle to obtain cash in smaller amounts. "
I would expect the cashback to show on the till receipts. Anyway, if you have access to the receipts and to bank statements you can see if the charge is greater than for the goods shown on the receipt. The only loophole I can see is if relative is paying for goods that they do not receive.


6) "we have changed this from ATM withdrawal to a direct debit each month."
How can the “friend” set up a direct debit unless they are running a business? Did you mean to write that you have set up a standing order?


7) If you go the prepaid card route I suggest that the account is in your relative’s name and the “friend” gets a second card for that account. That way you have access to the statements and can see where the money was spent if not on what and the money does not legally belong to the “friend”. Of course there is nothing to stop the card being misused within the limits of the balance on the account but as only the “friend” will have the card and PIN it would be clear who made the transactions.


As no credit is involved I believe that this will not create a financial link between your relative and “friend” but this would need to be checked.

8) Is the disabled relative elderly? Financial exploitation is a form of abuse. You may be able to get advice from Action On Elder Abuse.

Hi again, yes is elderly but as explained some earlier, it's not as clinical as it may appear and being managed to a better place very rapidly.

I think there has been way too much informality which turned into systematic fleecing (which I think the relative was aware of and tolerated) which then turned to embarrassment with the monster that was created. Then it went into radio silence...until we worked it out.

Now we have shut down the majority of those main roads and motorways. Now we have to shut down the slip roads...again by process so that no-one gets opportunity to gain (or loose) or be embarrassed....and it's working but more work needed.

Makes me wander how many of these type of situations exist out there that go un-managed.

Many thanks again for your time and effort on this one