BREXIT price rises

posh*spice

Generali wrote: »

I never got to vote in a general election when Maggie was leader of the Conservative Party and was living abroad for the 1992 General Election.

Presumably the other MPs didn't vote as they had whip agreement, a normal part of Parliamentary procedure or do you actually think something was afoot?

Your response makes me realisise why you have no understanding of where The UK is. I hate to tell you this but you have lost touch with your roots.

Generali

posh*spice wrote: »

Your response makes me realisise why you have no understanding of where The UK is. I hate to tell you this but you have lost touch with your roots.

I'm not sure how you tell that from a pretty anodyne post about Parliamentary procedure. I'm sure that you're not trying to claim that the vote to join the EEC was lost 45:55 yet the UK joined regardless.

ash28

BobQ wrote: »

You are using the word initiate in a technical sense as used in the EU rather than its everyday English meaning of starting something

Yes it is the role of the Commission to initiate a proposed law. That means traft the words in the correct form and languages and send to the EP.

But the Council, national Governments the EP or a member of the EP can propose legislation and ask the Commission to formally initiate it ( just like a minister can ask the UK civil service to prepara a bill, or an MP can seek help in drafting a bill)

As you say they cannot refuse without giving a reason and that reason can be challenged. Do you have examples of laws the Commission have rejected and why? In most cases it is due to practicalities of implementation, not some Machiavellian plot

The Commission initiates proposals in its own right as well as on behalf of others, so the term isn't just technical.

http://ec.europa.eu/info/law-making-process/planning-and-proposing-law_en

Where EU laws and policies come from

The Commission proposes laws and policies on its own initiative. It can also respond to invitations to do so from:

• European Council (heads of state or government of each EU country)
• Council of the European Union (government ministers from each EU country)
• European Parliament (directly elected by EU citizens)
• Citizens themselves, following a successful European Citizens’ Initiative

The Commission publishes a list of planned initiatives for each year the 2016 list is, http://ec.europa.eu/info/files/list-planned-initiatives_en and a number of the list is Commission originated.

So, while the Commission does draft the proposals it also initiates a number of them in its own right.

I don't really know the number of proposals the Commission rejects, but I agree with you that it won't be because of some Machiavellian plot.

posh*spice

ash28 wrote: »

The Commission initiates proposals in its own right as well as on behalf of others, so the term isn't just technical.

http://ec.europa.eu/info/law-making-process/planning-and-proposing-law_en



The Commission publishes a list of planned initiatives for each year the 2016 list is, http://ec.europa.eu/info/files/list-planned-initiatives_en and a number of the list is Commission originated.

So, while the Commission does draft the proposals it also initiates a number of them in its own right.

I don't really know the number of proposals the Commission rejects, but I agree with you that it won't be because of some Machiavellian plot.

In the end - it doesn't matter. I and millions of others don't want and NEVER wanted to be part of a United States of Europe. Shame we weren't asked in 1993.

Bit like the Scots who never voted to be part of the UK, some King James 7 decided on their behalf. Well 400 years later they got the chance to decide their fate in 2014 and they voted to Remain.

Bit like the confedaerate states who never wanted to be in the United States of America.

Big federal style government doesn't work. It becomes too remote from voters who get frustrated because they can't change things. Probably accounts for a lot of what we are seeing in the USA today.

wotsthat

I find the idea that people voted to leave the EU because they didn't like the EU style of democracy a little far fetched. It's post event justification.

A good test will be if/ when we still have something that looks like free movement post EU and how the lovers of democracy take that.

The people who voted leave because of immigration will be rueing the lack of any sort of post referendum vision because there's no mandate to do anything but leave the EU.

CLAPTON

wotsthat wrote: »

I find the idea that people voted to leave the EU because they didn't like the EU style of democracy a little far fetched. It's post event justification.

A good test will be if/ when we still have something that looks like free movement post EU and how the lovers of democracy take that.

The people who voted leave because of immigration will be rueing the lack of any sort of post referendum vision because there's no mandate to do anything but leave the EU.

its certainly true that the 'remain' government tried to stack the deck against the 'leave' vote in every way possible.

Just love the idea that the government black ops during the referendum is somehow a justification for rerunning the referendum.
Presumably on the basic that the 'remain' government cheated by not providing that full facts.

setmefree2

wotsthat wrote: »

I find the idea that people voted to leave the EU because they didn't like the EU style of democracy a little far fetched. It's post event justification.

Democracy and sovereignty were a very big part of the Leave vote. Remember UKIP was set up after Maastricht in 1993 as The Anti-Fedralist League changing its name later. It was set up by Bill Cash a Tory Maastrict rebel and he was joined by other Tory rebels who all led the party until Farrage took over in 2006. So for some 13 years the party was led by ex-Tory rebels.

The Tory rebels never lost sway in the Tory party either and after 23 years The Maastricht Rebels finally got their referendum.....

....you have to hand it to them......they were tenacious....I think that's why they won.

System

posh*spice wrote: »

Bit like the Scots who never voted to be part of the UK, some King James 7 decided on their behalf. .

It was during the reign of Queen Anne actually.
In 1707 the Scottish parliament voted for union with England.
The queen merely acceeded to the wishes of the Scottish people as expressed through their own parliament. If that was an undemocratic decision you can't blame the English.

setmefree2

wotsthat wrote: »

A good test will be if/ when we still have something that looks like free movement post EU and how the lovers of democracy take that.

And vice versa. What happens if the EU try to get the UK to stay in the EU by offering us a deal on immigration?

There is a story going around that the EU might offer the UK an emergency brake on immigration - how are the Anti-Federalists going to react if we don't actually leave the EU? THIS IS about democracy and sovereignty for a great number of people.

UKIP and the Eurosceptic Tories aren't going away - they have proved they will carry on fighting on an anti-federalist platform.

EU Considers Migration ‘Emergency Brake’ for U.K., Observer Says

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-24/eu-considers-migration-emergency-brake-for-u-k-observer-says

To be honest, this would be so much easier if it was just about immigration.

Of course, the solution might be that we leave the EU (the Anti-Federalists get what they want) and we have a Norway style model with an emergency brake on immigration for 7 years - under a Norway style model we could begin doing our own trade deals - and who knows what the future would hold then.

setmefree2

Tory MPs react with fury as EU leaders consider UK 'emergency brake' on free movement

Tory MPs have reacted with fury after it was reported that EU leaders are considering allowing Britain curbs on freedom of movement whilst retaining access to the single market.
MPs have accused leaders across the continent of "missing the point" and failing to accept the public's decision to sever ties with the 28-member bloc last month.

John Redwood, the former Cabinet minister, said the UK did not vote for a "slightly beefed-up version" of David Cameron’s attempted renegotiation with the EU.
"We voted to leave, to take back control of our laws, our money and our borders. Those phrases were repeated throughout the Leave campaign, heard and understood by many, and approved by the majority of voters.

Steve Baker, the MP for Wycombe, said: “If we end up with the Government doing things that don’t end the supremacy of EU law, don’t leave us able to control our own migration policy and leave us in the EEA, then there will be a great deal of dissatisfaction.”

Bill Cash, the Conservative MP for Stone, told The Independent that Britain cannot remain inside the market, stating: “If you’re out, you’re out."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/24/tory-mps-react-with-fury-as-eu-leaders-consider-uk-emergency-bra/