LegionGroup Hospital PCN for red route in staff carpark

king312

Hello,

As this is slightly unusual I thought I seek some public advice, two questions at the end.

In short, an overzealous private carpark attendant from the public carpark came over and put a ticket on my car for parking in the staff carpark with the issue reason: parked on a red route. It is a staff permit only, paid by salary sacrifice carpark (managed by HR at DGH). Half the carparks appear managed by hospital security and half by private companies, no one knows which and no member of staff have signed a contract with a private company. The staff car park has a single permit only sign but no enforcement notices, absolutely no notices on entry as it is a staff car park -unlike the public car park. It is a PFI hospital whom via Interserve, sub-contract out to others including Legion Group, a division of OCS Group UK Ltd.

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I have written to the company with the following. They auto-responded stating they will respond within 35 days then 17 minutes later emailed rejecting my informal appeal. I have emailed several times and they have given me a POPLA number

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I received a parking ticket on 28th June 2016 but I believe the ticket was wrongly issued, having discussed this with security today as requested yesterday by security staff they feel I should appeal if the car was inside of the carpark and not on the road. I would like to submit an informal appeal for the following reasons:

1. The car was not parked on a red route as stated on issue reason, thus no contravention occurred. The car was also not on a route/road into or around the carpark, or outside of the carpark either and was not causing an obstruction either. Common-sense should also apply, it is a carpark not a red route/road.
2. The car was parked in a paid secure staff car park with a valid blue permit displayed. I understand security believe it may have been seen due to weather as being a black permit, but photograph and plain eye site show it is a blue permit, additionally I would not be able to enter the carpark if a blue permit was not also not added to my access card by hospital security, on top of being displayed on the car
3. Other cars with wheels touching red carpark markings were not ticketed, I find this unfair. Additionally cars that are badly parked/obstructing/on the grass are not ticketed. My car was on the side in what was previously a parking bay, away from the road and the carpark route.
4. Having contacted Dudley Metropolitan Borough Council, they confirm there is no enforceable red route in the staff carpark
5. I have checked the Traffic Regulations Orders at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal and note that there are no red routes for within the staff car park at Russells Hall Hospital, actually there is no red route requested/approved for the hospital roads either. But my car was inside of the carpark.
6. There are no displayed notices or signage stating that there are PCN/fines or management of the staff carpark by Legion Group or any such notices. Your own photos also highlight there is no signage, or possibly visible signage if it is hidden.
7. I have also signed no contract with your company. The rules for hospital staff carparking in secure areas, are unclear and we have received no notice/email that there is sub-management by an outside company and new rules relating to your company; thus it is not clear if your company is managing the secure staff car-park or if it is possible to receive a ticket for a valid/paid secure staff carpark on private land that I work for and am authorised to park in for now.
8. As it is a pre-paid secure carpark that is profitable, can I ask for a breakdown of how the losses are calculated to charge the monies demanded, it is excessive.
9. I am a law abiding citizen and not knowing the new rules for the staff carpark and given duties of my job and hospital, I made an honest mistake. I have never had a parking ticket on my car till today.

Separately, it would be appropriate to contact your partners at the hospital and ask them to email staff or put the new rules on the staff notice board in addition to applying for a red route for the hospital including within its secure carparks which staff have to have salary deduction for. I would appreciate a speedy response.

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I have tried to keep communicating with the company but without giving my address, using the hospital address instead. I have not received a NTK. PALS said they cannot do anything about it. HR have not got back to me. I have also recently sent the well-written template for newbies ---not allowed to hyperlink but see main board

As it is a red-route ticket disguised as a PCN, for a staff carpark (you need to swipe to get into, so the parking attendant had to walk over having parked on a red route road); is there anything else I should do?

I have received a POPLA number, when is the ideal time to write to them?

Coupon-mad

I have not received a NTK.

That doesn't matter because you've said who was driving. They don't need to issue one now at all.

I have tried to keep communicating with the company but without giving my address, using the hospital address instead.

An interesting approach, so they know you are the driver and are considering the Hospital address to be your address for service of documents.

I have received a POPLA number, when is the ideal time to write to them?

You have 28 days to use the POPLA code, from the date of rejection letter. You do not 'write to them' nor use the form. You compose a long and detailed POPLA appeal based on other NHS car park and/or 'no stopping' and/or permit ones that you read here. It is submitted electronically, once ready.

The staff car park has a single permit only sign but no enforcement notices, absolutely no notices on entry as it is a staff car park -unlike the public car park.

Interesting. Can you get pictures of the woeful lack of terms on any sign? Did they send any evidence of the car on red lines or near a sign, and a close up of the terms? We have almost a month to help you, so show us your signage photos as that will be a major part of the appeal.

king312

Hello, thank you fr the detailed reply

The signs at the front of the staff carpark are generic and nothing about Legiongroup. You will notice that the sub-contractors went overboard with the red markings surrounding every parking bay



They sent a picture of my car touching the red lines
In the pictures there are also no signs, for the reason: there are no signs about parking charges. (There is one sign stating it is a blue permit only sign and this needs to be displayed but its fallen to the ground)

The_Slithy_Tove

king312 wrote: »

The signs at the front of the staff carpark are generic and nothing about Legiongroup.

Let's see them anyway. Once we have a full understanding of ALL the signage in the area (and where it is), only then can we form a definitive conclusion about the matter.

Coupon-mad

Sounds good. Do show us more photos. Did you get one of the sign fallen down?

Lack of clear signage to create any contract should be your first appeal point, with pictures being embedded into the word document as you go.

Search for another Hospital POPLA appeal on this board and read a few, crib from their wording. Show us after reading others, your first draft. Not just signage - see other threads for the usual stuff.

king312

The picture above is showing the signs at the front of the hospital, nothing about parking fines, but its a secure watch area and safety notices.

I'll get more pictures but it will just be showing the car park with over-zealous red lines surrounding every bay. What they are doing is that because A&E has red lines and police (not aware not official red lines) give out tickets to those on the internal roads, Legion Group are trying to apply this in car parks. The old car park had yellow lines but only a couple, not miles of them

Fruitcake

Have you complained to your employer and the hospital trust. Have you contacted your union rep? It looks like the PPC is trying to commit fraud so trading standards, the BPA, and DVLA should also be informed as well as local and national press, an your MP.

king312

Forgot to mention, the hospital said they have no contract with Legion Group for the staff carpark, only for the public accessible roads and public pay and display carpark.

I am concerned the police have been giveing out red-route tickets to those on the hospital road but as it is not registered, they are not official red routes.

Obviously don't park in front of A&E unless someone is dying, just try not to park on any hospital red route road. But the car park is different (which this appeal is about, its also the staff carpark Legion group have to tresspass through bushes to enter)

Fruitcake

king312 wrote: »

Forgot to mention, the hospital said they have no contract with Legion Group for the staff carpark, only for the public accessible roads and public pay and display carpark.

I am concerned the police have been giveing out red-route tickets to those on the hospital road but as it is not registered, they are not official red routes.

Obviously don't park in front of A&E unless someone is dying, just try not to park on any hospital red route road. But the car park is different (which this appeal is about, its also the staff carpark Legion group have to tresspass through bushes to enter)

So the parking company ARE trying to obtain money by deception. How far do you want to go? Police, who will probably tell you (incorrectly) that it is a civil matter.
Your employer, Trading Standards, local, national press, and your MP should all be made aware of this as well as the BPA and DVLA.

king312

Parking companies do his all the time, I'm still shocked I found the ticket on my car.

Legion Group rather than sending out vague anonymous emails, have emailed me to say I should not have appealed to them in the first place I was the registered keeper of a car-share to work, when I asked when will I receive a NTK.

I put in the POPLA appeal on multiple grounds but as they are not on the Hospital Parking guidelines I am confident about taking this to court if it goes that far, i.e. subjecting staff to £25 internal fines plus £70 fines by an external body that has no contract/legal right. Plus painting double red lines willy-nillie and conning both public and staff into fines.... some without signs/contract

I have had the local paper contact me, I think they mentioned contact the Chief exec, who is good but really busy. I'll see. As I am no longer at the hospital, you can look at Google maps https://goo.gl/0lhDKH

I can't contact the DVLA as Legion Group have not written to me at work or home but may email them after the POPLA decision. Atthe end of the day don't have that much time to do all of this.

Although it does not apply, Has anyone seen http://www.donotpay.co.uk/

king312

Still waiting for POPLA, currently they are awaiting "Operator Information and Evidence"

Hospital HR have got back to me, wiping their grubby hands clean stating any actions whatever they maybe are inline with their new Parking policy including PCN on the grounds of Health and Safety!!!! inc. fire access ---!!!!!!?

Interestingly, The hospital parking policy states PCN reports should be accessible to us, but when I asked they stated 'due to data protection and confidentiality I am not in a position to share the PCN reports...' these reports have no personal/vehicle identifiable data. So it seems the hospital maybe receiving money indirectly from the double-jeopardy of parking charges, ontop of direct profits from the parking scheme. What annoys me is the lack of transparency