Is the collapse of the EU now the best bet for the UK

Crashy_Time

HornetSaver wrote: »

Yes, it is. As a result of the Leave vote, the Benelux countries now have more influence over our economic future than they ever did (they can, and will, use their internal clout to make the case for putting EU stability ahead of pragmatic negotiation with Britain, an argument that Eastern Europe and France will find compelling).

Spain has more sway over the prospect of Scottish independence than the British government ever did (they can, and will, veto Scottish membership of the EU regardless of how enthusiastic the other 26 members might be).

Don`t bet on it, they will be too busy fighting each other like ferrets in a sack over their own interests, and it is in most of their interests that they continue to trade with the UK isn`t it? Glad to see the SNP slapped down, NS is potentially very dangerous IMO, she and some others in the SNP are hell bent on a personal agenda they have had from their early years, nothing to do with "The people of Scotland" at all. So ironic that the petty interests of Spain and the rest of the EZ (suppressing democracy) is the thing that is going to stop the SNP hitching their flag to the EZ waggon as the Indians circle ever closer....
:rotfl:

Crashy_Time

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

All of that there is a damning example of why the EU as a political project does not work.

What's bad for one country is automatically bad for all.

Netherlands trades heavily with the UK, as do France and Germany. All 3 are top 5 contributors to the EU budget - the majority of the rest are net beneficiaries. If countries like these wish to see a reasonable trade arrangement with the UK that is then voted down by net beneficiaries at the expense of the taxpayers in those 3 countries they will have an internal crisis on their hands.

By spiting the UK, they will also spite themselves and cause the whole thing to come crashing down. The Finnish said as much on TV last night. Stopping contagion would be showing they're willing to change and willing to work with countries like the UK and not have Bulgarian fridge magnet makers cause one country to veto the interests of the other 26 members. That situation cannot continue.

Exactly, the UK is in a very strong position here, they can influence the EZ from the outside quite easily.

DTDfanBoy

Spidernick wrote: »

That this is a very selfish attitude!

It is a very selfish attitude, but at this point in time I really don't think we should be placing the EU economy ahead of our own.

We're approaching two years of tough negotiations, from a position of comparative weakness. As things stand at present I fail to see how we will come out of negotiations in better financial shape than before this Brexit madness started. If we don't get the concessions our financial services industry needs to operate freely within the EU we will be in huge trouble, at this point in time I can't see the EU granting such concessions without freedom of movement being accepted by the UK.

I certainly think we would have a distinct advantage negotiating with European trading partners on a country by country basis rather that against the combined force of the EU.

.string.

Wishing that your biggest market would go belly up is even sillier than putting access to that market in peril.

But the answer to the question, given our present deplorable circumstances, is that if one or two countries left the EU it would help us.

In addition to producing an interesting acronym it would for example be intriguing if the French left the EU so that France and the UK could work together with a free trade arrangement; there is great scope for Anglo French cooperation.


(Cue for xenophobic anti-French BS)

TrickyTree83

.string. wrote: »

Wishing that your biggest market would go belly up is even sillier than putting access to that market in peril.

But the answer to the question, given our present deplorable circumstances, is that if one or two countries left the EU it would help us.

In addition to producing an interesting acronym it would for example be intriguing if the French left the EU so that France and the UK could work together with a free trade arrangement; there is great scope for Anglo French cooperation.


(Cue for xenophobic anti-French BS)

No way, I'd be 100% behind pan-European free trade and co-operation.

Not political union, or the creation of a European superstate.

.string.

Free trade for all! (eventually after all the financial crashes)

Of course, but it is ironic is it not that if the EU did not exist one would have to invent a new one.

If I buy an electrical appliance from another country I want to be sure it met quality and safety standards which I agreed with..

That is precisely the sort of thing that the EU has done by developing a common set of standards applied throughout the EU. (some of those "laws" the leave side bleat about as if they impinged on our most holy of sovereign competences).

TrickyTree83

.string. wrote: »

Free trade for all! (eventually after all the financial crashes)

Of course, but it is ironic is it not that if the EU did not exist one would have to invent a new one.

If I buy an electrical appliance from another country I want to be sure it met quality and safety standards which I agreed with..

That is precisely the sort of thing that the EU has done by developing a common set of standards applied throughout the EU. (some of those "laws" the leave side bleat about as if they impinged on our most holy of sovereign competences).

Isn't that what trading standards check for on imports from China, that they comply.

Also - the EU regulations didn't stop the Polish horse meat scandal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_horse_meat_scandal

CLAPTON

.string. wrote: »

Free trade for all! (eventually after all the financial crashes)

Of course, but it is ironic is it not that if the EU did not exist one would have to invent a new one.

If I buy an electrical appliance from another country I want to be sure it met quality and safety standards which I agreed with..

That is precisely the sort of thing that the EU has done by developing a common set of standards applied throughout the EU. (some of those "laws" the leave side bleat about as if they impinged on our most holy of sovereign competences).

most electrical standards are agreed with world wide trade bodies and not the EU

HornetSaver

Crashy_Time wrote: »

Exactly, the UK is in a very strong position here, they can influence the EZ from the outside quite easily.

Let me make this clear, I voted Remain and continue to believe that the deal we will ultimately do under article 50 will be worse than if we had stayed in the EU. I hope I'm wrong, and accept that it's early days, but have *yet* to see anything from any political party or potential future Prime Minister to convince me that I am.

But, given that we have voted to leave and are thus going to leave, I think we will have far more ability to protect our economic interests in Europe if the EU breaks up.

I do not for a second believe that is actually going to happen though. France, Germany and Benelux are far too politically committed to it despite being net contributors. Spain knows that for as long as they are in the EU Catalonia will never become independent. Eastern Europe (despite many people being just as opposed to the principle as the British) gets far too good a deal from it. Greece - despite there being a very strong argument that the Eurozone is directly responsible for its current predicament - is utterly reliant on it. Austria is too neutral to take any sort of position on the matter. And the Scandinavian countries, despite having reservations about their national identities on a scale not unlike the UK, are far more politically inclined towards it, both among politicians and voters.

They may not all believe in the EU for the same reasons, but they all believe in it.

TrickyTree83

HornetSaver wrote: »

Let me make this clear, I voted Remain and continue to believe that the deal we will ultimately do under article 50 will be worse than if we had stayed in the EU. I hope I'm wrong, and accept that it's early days, but have *yet* to see anything from any political party or potential future Prime Minister to convince me that I am.

But, given that we have voted to leave and are thus going to leave, I think we will have far more ability to protect our economic interests in Europe if the EU breaks up.

I do not for a second believe that is actually going to happen though. France, Germany and Benelux are far too politically committed to it despite being net contributors. Spain knows that for as long as they are in the EU Catalonia will never become independent. Eastern Europe (despite many people being just as opposed to the principle as the British) gets far too good a deal from it. Greece - despite there being a very strong argument that the Eurozone is directly responsible for its current predicament - is utterly reliant on it. Austria is too neutral to take any sort of position on the matter. And the Scandinavian countries, despite having reservations about their national identities on a scale not unlike the UK, are far more politically inclined towards it, both among politicians and voters.

They may not all believe in the EU for the same reasons, but they all believe in it.

Sweden and Denmark are not happy with the EU in its current form.