Thieves

System

https://www.directdebit.co.uk/DirectDebitExplained/pages/cancellationfailed.aspx

footyguy

firefox1956 wrote: »

"And that is when I discovered the supplier can resurrect cancelled DD mandates anyway! :eek:"
I don't think people realise that suppliers can do this..........

I'm sure you're right. I only found out as described above, but they can. (terms of course apply)

...under the Scheme rules, an organisation would have to obtain your authority to reinstate a cancelled Instruction.

https://www.directdebit.co.uk/DirectDebitExplained/Pages/Cancellingpayments.aspx

The argument they use is that if you have complained you are no longer getting the DD discount to which you believe you are entitled, then you presumably have agreed to pay via DD (and hence the reinstatement of the mandate if that is required)

Of course you could complain you have given no authority to reinstate the DD mandate that you cancelled, and you would in such circumstance be covered by the DD guarantee if you then claimed that way ... at least until such time as the supplier successfully argues otherwise.
In such circumstances, I suspect a supplier would not argue otherwise but simply take the claim on the chin, and hit you with resultant higher prices instead.
(and use your essential admission that the mandate was deliberately cancelled in the first place as evidence why they can charge higher prices should you later complain about that)

fred246

This morning I had a sheet of paper that said 'Final Bill' You are in debit by £100. On 5th July we will take £200 out of your account. After searching for a possible reason I phoned them up. 'I owe you £100 so you are taking £200 out of my account. Why? "Oh I have no idea. It should be £100. We will take £200 out by direct debit on 5th July unless you cancel the direct debit. "Maybe you could just take £100 out by direct debit? No we can't change it now. In the end I paid the £100 by credit card (0% 24 months) and then cancelled the direct debit after taking the Full name and address of the employee instructing me to do this.

footyguy

fred246 wrote: »

This morning I had a sheet of paper that said 'Final Bill' You are in debit by £100. On 5th July we will take £200 out of your account. After searching for a possible reason I phoned them up. 'I owe you £100 so you are taking £200 out of my account. Why? "Oh I have no idea. It should be £100. We will take £200 out by direct debit on 5th July unless you cancel the direct debit. "Maybe you could just take £100 out by direct debit? No we can't change it now. In the end I paid the £100 by credit card (0% 24 months) and then cancelled the direct debit after taking the Full name and address of the employee instructing me to do this.

If that was what your supplier proposed, and you were happy to go along with it, then I suppose that's fine.

However, under the terms of the Direct Debit Scheme, you are entitled to 10 working days advance notice (plus delivery time of such advance notice) ... unless otherwise agreed previously.

The advance notice period is more than sufficient in most cases for the payer to receive and examine the notice and question it to the supplier if necessary. e.g. I see you received and questoined yours the same day

That then leaves the supplier enough time to either submit the correct BACS file, or if they have already submitted the BACS, to withdraw it and submit a revised one. (which in many cases will mean no collection against that specific payer on that date as any revision still requires the specified advance notive period to be abided by, so it usually means the agreed payment will then be agreed to be collected later)

I indicated above the advance notice period may be mutually agreed to be less, but the supplier should not agree a shortened notice period unless they are confident it still allows them time to collect a corrected amount (or at least no amount) where a customer correctly challenges the advance notice.

If the supplier fails to do any of this, remember the payer is fully protected by the terms of the Direct Debit Guarantee.
All such claims are logged, and the suppliers sponser (one of the banks that provide the DD scheme) reviews them. If a supplier repeatedly has too many successful claims against them, then the sponsor may remove their sponsorship of that supplier ... meaning the supplier can no longer collect via DD

backfoot

fred246 wrote: »

After privatization of energy I used to change supplier regularly. Every time I changed one of the suppliers would steal money from me. I got so fed up of sorting it out that I just couldn't be bothered changing anymore. I have just changed again. The supplier I was leaving sent me a final bill. You are in debit by £x. We will take a final payment of £x + nearly £100. I just phoned them up. 'Why are you charging £x+100 instead of £x. Sorry it's a mistake I can't explain. We will charge you £x. This must be normal behaviour as I have had it every time. Surely some-one should be able to stop corporate theft like this.

You should present your documentary evidence immediately to Consumer Affairs at Ofgem.

Your allegation of systematic and obvious theft by several Suppliers, which must affect all Consumers, needs to be stopped with criminal prosecutions to follow.

Show us some examples of this theft by posting some example bills.

Then again, it could all be a basic misunderstanding or imaginary.

Valli

fred246 wrote: »

In the end I paid the £100 by credit card (0% 24 months) and then cancelled the direct debit after taking the Full name and address of the employee instructing me to do this.

While I don't for a moment believe you have got the full
name and address of the person with whom you were discussing this with how would it help to have that information?

fred246

backfoot wrote: »

You should present your documentary evidence immediately to Consumer Affairs at Ofgem.

Your allegation of systematic and obvious theft by several Suppliers, which must affect all Consumers, needs to be stopped with criminal prosecutions to follow.

Show us some examples of this theft by posting some example bills.

Then again, it could all be a basic misunderstanding or imaginary.

The time when I was having problems was pre 2001. In 2001 I moved into a house with an IGT gas supply and was so fed up with transferring that I stayed with the same supplier almost till now. I am afraid I don't keep statements that long. Basically they never synchronized the dates and meter readings of the transfer. Guess what - I always lost out. When you tried to sort it out they blamed each other. It was often hard to contact the companies. Some used numbers that cost £1.50 a minute to phone them. I have personally never met anyone else who checks their billing. I thought in the 2001-2015 period things may have been sorted out and then when I just changed I got this funny bill. When I saw you are in debit by £100 we will take £200 out of your account I assumed there must be a reason for the extra £100. After checking previous bills and the latest it became obvious there was no reason.

fred246

Valli wrote: »

While I don't for a moment believe you have got the full
name and address of the person with whom you were discussing this with how would it help to have that information?

I wasn't happy when I was told to cancel my direct debit as my tariff was a DD tariff. If there are any further problems it's much better to say 'I was told by Jane Jones who works in your Cardiff office that I should cancel it' rather than someone told me to do it when I phoned you up.

backfoot

fred246 wrote: »

The time when I was having problems was pre 2001. In 2001 I moved into a house with an IGT gas supply and was so fed up with transferring that I stayed with the same supplier almost till now. I am afraid I don't keep statements that long. Basically they never synchronized the dates and meter readings of the transfer. Guess what - I always lost out. When you tried to sort it out they blamed each other. It was often hard to contact the companies. Some used numbers that cost £1.50 a minute to phone them. I have personally never met anyone else who checks their billing. I thought in the 2001-2015 period things may have been sorted out and then when I just changed I got this funny bill. When I saw you are in debit by £100 we will take £200 out of your account I assumed there must be a reason for the extra £100. After checking previous bills and the latest it became obvious there was no reason.

I think your description of what has happened is rather loose. What I suspect has happened is that on switching your closing reading gets validated by an independent third party. Many customers (including me) have found that the validation process is flawed and it produces an incorrect closing reading.

Unfortunately, it is the accepted industry practice and the comfort is that the closing reading becomes the opening reading for the new Supplier. That is an error of the process not theft.It would rarely produce a material overall difference in cost but if it did it can be queried and rechecked.

I cannot see that you would ever be presented with a bill/statement which said you owed £100 only for a direct debit of £200 to be taken. If you have just had this , please post the relevant bill and the experienced forum posters will advise you further.

backfoot

Just to add, below is an excellent thread which explains the process in much greater detail.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5435169