MoneySaving Poll: How will you be voting in the EU referendum?

torbrex

HanSpan wrote: »

That is of course your choice - but Europe, and the rest of the world, has moved on so I can't personally see any reason to vote based on what the situation was, or who made what choices, over 30 (maybe even 40?) years ago.

I am genuinely curious about the specifics though - what is it that is that being part of the EU as opposed to the common market bothers you?
I'm finding it hard to distinguish what the differences are in being member of the EU, or EEA, or EEG, or single market, or EFMA or..... (I'm not ashamed to say I'm totally confused!!)

I object to the growth of what was a good practical idea into the monster that it has become.
Of course everything has moved on but not in the direction that I would have liked it too, the EU has become a state onto itself and continues to grow without any decent brakes being fitted, I see Britain leaving as the best choice for both us and the EU as it will force a re-think on all sides.

G6JPG

HanSpan wrote: »

[snip]
I am genuinely curious about the specifics though - what is it that is that being part of the EU as opposed to the common market bothers you?
[snip]

As "torbrex" has elucidated, the "common market" was - or, at least, it has become (slightly) clear was presented to us as - purely a trading agreement, whereby - roughly - we and they wouldn't impose import taxes/tariffs on each others' goods and services. The EU, on the other hand, [STRIKE]seems to [/STRIKE]control virtually everything: laws, immigration, technical standards, where money is spent, ...

Whether this is a good or bad thing is what, I think, we are deciding. I personally like (most of) the harmonisation of technical standards, for example. Like "torbrex", I feel the rest of it has grown (not in size - arguably that's good - but in reach) too far, but people have the right to believe its growth is a good thing if they wish.

HanSpan

torbrex wrote: »

I object to the growth of what was a good practical idea into the monster that it has become.
Of course everything has moved on but not in the direction that I would have liked it too, the EU has become a state onto itself and continues to grow without any decent brakes being fitted, I see Britain leaving as the best choice for both us and the EU as it will force a re-think on all sides.

I'm not trying to be difficult but that's still too nonspecific for me. What is this monster? What is it that's a problem?

What I'm looking for from the leave side is that if we leave we would stop having to do/follow/whatever XYZ, and why that is a good thing.

Without that - to me - it all seems like more of a feeling than a decision based on specifics.

HanSpan

G6JPG wrote: »

As "torbrex" has elucidated, the "common market" was - or, at least, it has become (slightly) clear was presented to us as - purely a trading agreement, whereby - roughly - we and they wouldn't impose import taxes/tariffs on each others' goods and services. The EU, on the other hand, [STRIKE]seems to [/STRIKE]control virtually everything: laws, immigration, technical standards, where money is spent, ...

Whether this is a good or bad thing is what, I think, we are deciding. I personally like (most of) the harmonisation of technical standards, for example. Like "torbrex", I feel the rest of it has grown (not in size - arguably that's good - but in reach) too far, but people have the right to believe its growth is a good thing if they wish.

Again - not trying to be difficult - but its all still too non specific. I think the EU seems to control vitrually everything to some but to me it doesn't have that appearance at all. I think its again a feeling some people have rather than anything that I can see as concrete.

All the figures I've seen show that of our laws only about 12.5% are EU laws - so not that many really. And that almost of of those relate to trade and things around it.

Freedom of movement of workers was part of the common market rules as far as I can tell - certainly the chart I found shows we have had that with various EU places since 1973 so that's not changed. What has changed is what I think is an incredibly worrying feeling that many seem to have that immigration is bad. I think this is completely wrong and dangerous, and those who are spreading this fear are totally irresponsible, but in terms of leaving the EU all of it is irrelevant. There just as many people coming from outside the EU and the govt who promised to reduce this drastically haven't done so - what makes anyone think leaving the EU will change that? Also - as I have said in many places - if we wish to remain in/linked to/with access to the single market we will have to retain freedom of movement anyway.

Where money is spent. I'm really not sure what you mean by this. Sure the EU spends the money it collects where the EU as a whole sees fit, but that's a small amount in comparison to what our own govt has to spend. As far as I am aware the EU has absolutely no control whatsoever on how our own govt spend (or don't spend) the taxes they collect. If I'm wrong here then that's something I would be interested to learn about.

Standards I agree is good thing to have standardised! and I have no objection at all to floors being set for employment rights at an EU level. The VAT rules are a bit daft as they enshrine some things at the vat level they happened to have some time ago unless they have been already changed since (this is why we can't rate sanitary products as 0 right now), but the EU are looking to change that to make it more flexible and hopefully to change as time moves on!

The thing is I haven't seen one regular person saying that the EU makes us do any specific thing they want to get rid of (other than the freedom of movement thing which I'll not go round again!)
The only people I've seen saying they would want to have rid of any EU set rules are businesses that feel they are hampered from basically treating their employees less well. To me, if staying in the EU prevents even some unscrupulous people from treating their staff less well then staying is a good thing, particularly in view of the total lack of specific reasons to leave that I am still waiting to see.

HanSpan

Thought some might be interested in this slideshow that I found. It's not telling anyone which way to vote at all! Its just showing the common misperceptions. I found some of it very enlightening.

http://www.slideshare.net/IpsosMORI/european-union-the-perils-of-perception?ref=https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3742/The-Perils-of-Perception-and-the-EU.aspx

G6JPG

HanSpan wrote: »

Again - not trying to be difficult - but its all still too non specific. I think the EU seems to control vitrually everything to some but to me it doesn't have that appearance at all. I think its again a feeling some people have rather than anything that I can see as concrete.

I agree: as a scientist/engineer, if someone came to me arguing just a "feeling", I'd not take them very seriously. So I'm frustrated that I do feel that way - but I can't change that I do.

All the figures I've seen show that of our laws only about 12.5% are EU laws - so not that many really. And that almost of of those relate to trade and things around it.

Of course, a lot of our laws predate not only the EU but even some of the countries that it comprises; but you're probably right, even limiting to the ones made since 1973, those EU-originated probably are still in the minority.

Freedom of movement of workers was part of the common market rules as far as I can tell - certainly the chart I found shows we have had that with various EU places since 1973 so that's not changed.

I take your word for it - but I don't remember that aspect getting much actual publicity at the time.

What has changed is what I think is an incredibly worrying feeling that many seem to have that immigration is bad. I think this is completely wrong and dangerous, and those who are spreading this fear are totally irresponsible, but in terms of leaving the EU all of it is irrelevant.

Agreed: and the worse aspects are that recently some (in large part our yellow press, I think) have tried to mix it up with scenes from Greece and Calais, which are to do with the refugee problem, not the migration "problem".

There just as many people coming from outside the EU and the govt who promised to reduce this drastically haven't done so - what makes anyone think leaving the EU will change that? Also - as I have said in many places - if we wish to remain in/linked to/with access to the single market we will have to retain freedom of movement anyway.

That doesn't necessarily follow, but you're probably right.

Where money is spent. I'm really not sure what you mean by this. Sure the EU spends the money it collects where the EU as a whole sees fit, but that's a small amount in comparison to what our own govt has to spend. As far as I am aware the EU has absolutely no control whatsoever on how our own govt spend (or don't spend) the taxes they collect. If I'm wrong here then that's something I would be interested to learn about.

Well, there are the things like the VAT on sanitary products you mention, but as you said, they're working on those. I've actually been pleased with some of the places the EU has spent our/their money - some nature reserves and the like, some help to depressed areas.
[snip]

The only people I've seen saying they would want to have rid of any EU set rules are businesses that feel they are hampered from basically treating their employees less well. To me, if staying in the EU prevents even some unscrupulous people from treating their staff less well then staying is a good thing, particularly in view of the total lack of specific reasons to leave that I am still waiting to see.

Yes, some of the leavers are anti-workers' rights - that's (partly) why a lot of the blue party are for Brexit. Though, equally, I'm puzzled why there's still a not-tiny part of the red party that is as well. And it's not only workers' rights - there are a few other things that don't match the British view. (And no, I don't mean the made-up sillies like bananas, or the famous high-fat offal tube as in Yes, Minister.) Of course, you're going to ask for specifics and I'm not going to be able to think of any at the moment.

I'm sorry - and cross with myself - that my overwhelming feeling is based on just that, a feeling; however, I can't help feeling that my mind has a reason for this feeling, even if I can't articulate it.

tastyfish

loony767 wrote: »

If you don’t understand what all the fuss is about. Here is the EU put simply.
A son goes to his Dad having saved up some money from his weekend job.
Son “ Dad I’ve saved up £350 pounds to buy the new laptop I need for my college course”
Dad “Well done son, give the money to me and I’ll help you”
Son “Ok now what?”
Dad “I will allow you £185 pounds back less my handling fee of £5 so £180 which you may only spend on a new phone”
Son “But I need a laptop!”
Dad “No, we’ve decided you can only buy a phone and you may only buy a phone from Germany and it must be pink. You must also source the phone within 2 days otherwise I will not release the money”
Son “But it’s my money!”
Dad “I’m afraid you are a member of this family and you must contribute to everyone else’s needs. I will decide how the money is spent”
Son “So what happens to the £165?”
Dad “Well your sister needs a new dress”
Son “She has already had many new dresses”
Dad “We’ve put it to the vote and I’m afraid you’re outvoted”
Son “But I need a laptop to continue my course!”
Dad “My decision is final”
Son “But that’s not fair, will I ever have a say in how my money is spent”
Dad “No, and by the way we’ve got a couple more people moving into your room and you’ll have to pay for their keep”
Son “Well I’m leaving then”
Dad “Don’t be like that lad, we need your money. And if you leave you won’t be able to buy a pink phone from Germany you’ll have to buy one here instead”
Son “I NEED A LAPTOP!”

Or to use a more accurate analogy:

Son: Hello store, I need a new laptop.
Store: Here's a laptop, was £350, but it's in a sale, reduced to £250
Son: Wow, that's fantastic, almost a third off! So shall I give you £350 and you give me £100 back?
Store: Why would you think that? That's crazy. It's a sale. We've reduced it up front already. On top of that we'll give you a whole load of freebies worth £86.
Son: £86?! Wow, that's great. What sort of freebies?
Store: We'll pay towards your broadband, a new router and a load of other stuff. Some of it might be useful, some of it not, hey-ho, it's on us.
Son: Sounds good, saves me spending on it. So in reality, my laptop will cost me about £164?
Store: You could see it that way. By the way, do you spend in local shops?
Son: Sure, about 13% of my £2,000,000/year salary
Store: Well, if you join our store club, we'll pay the VAT on everything you buy in local shops! And we'll give you free legal advice too. By the way, here's a full list of your rights as a customer - don't worry, it's in addition to your statutory consumer rights. Almost forgot!
Son: Wow, I only came in to buy a laptop. But sounds like I get a whole load of other stuff I wouldn't even have known about! Thank you.
Store: You're welcome. Anything else?
Son: You don't happen to know a highly-skilled person who can fix a leaky tap? My dad's been promising for years but he just won't get off his backside.
Store: I'll call my friend Tomasz. He's good. And cheap!

HanSpan

Sorry for the delay in responding - I didn't get a notification to say there was a response, then when I realised I wanted to honor the embargo on arguments about this subject for the weekend.

Regardless of which way you and I eventually vote I'm really happy we've been able to discuss it in a civil manner. I only wish the same were true of everyone involved in the debate.

G6JPG wrote: »

I agree: as a scientist/engineer, if someone came to me arguing just a "feeling", I'd not take them very seriously. So I'm frustrated that I do feel that way - but I can't change that I do.

I am at the other end of the scale I suppose - I struggle to ever make decisions based on feelings. I find things that can only ever be based on feelings really hard to resolve - even things like whether I want to go out for dinner next Wednesday is a real struggle!

I'm not immediately hooked by emotional reasons to choose which way to vote. However I've seen several in the past week or so, and I hope you don't mind if I share a few. I hope they may sway you too.

Gordon Brown isn't top of my list of favourite people but I did find this touching and persuasive:
http://gordonandsarahbrown.com/2016/06/gordon-brown-features-in-new-film-asking-uk-to-lead-not-leave-eu/

I've scrolled down my own feed and most of the EU in/out stuff that I have posted is irritating - and I shared it! I've really aimed to post things that are at least halfway reasonable, but pretty much everything is grim and frustrating and mainly innacurate. I guess I've not done as well as I hoped

The tag below is long and dry but its genuinely the only thing I've found interesting and engaging in at least the past fortnight. I think its all factual - I can't find any reason to think there's any lies.
https://www.facebook.com/UniversityofLiverpool/videos/vb.130437690316977/1293361974024537/?type=2&theater

HanSpan

Nick is a local politician who I often disagree with but this came through our door and it really touched me. He kindly supplied me the text so I can share it here:

"A Personal Letter from Nick Hollinghurst about the
Future of Our Country

Dear Electors and Friends,

In the last 6 months of conflict, as the British, Russian and American troops fought their bitter way to Berlin, I was conceived in love and optimism – two sentiments currently in short supply.

I was born in Merseyside into a world of relative peace, but short of food, often three families to a house and our playgrounds were the bombsites and ruined buildings. The consequences of war, conflict and political madness were never far away.

But it was also a world of confidence, of rebuilding – and of reconciliation. Across the dark and battered railways of Europe children’s choirs were exchanged, concerts held in the cathedral. Young people from Germany and Austria were put up in our crowded homes - children whose fathers might have bombed the city 10 years earlier.

That spirit of reconciliation was continent-wide. Britain has always been heavily involved in Europe. As an Occupying Power we maintained our Army of the Rhine in Germany until recently. We helped set up the institutions that became the EU, we contributed to new constitutions for new nations, we played a major role is drafting the Convention on Human Rights - we helped make Europe the community of democratic countries it had never been before.

Britain has a lot to be proud of. Our leadership role is recognised and appreciated by others. We should not now withdraw and slink away to who knows where, hand in hand with a bunch of right-wing misfits.

Conflict is not safely tucked away in the history books. Just talk to the people of Omagh or the Ukraine. If you think it’s safe now to weaken our security links with European countries then talk to the people of Brussels or Paris – or London.

Many people are worried about immigration, but at least as many people come in from non-EU countries as from the EU and that is something we do have complete control over. Do we really need so many wealthy Russians coming here to buy up London property? Do we need so many non-EU people coming here to wash cars? EU immigration is indeed uncontrolled, as too is the right of Brits to live and work abroad. But it is also often temporary. It’s very much a two-way street.

Don’t you think it’s better to have our main border in northern France rather than in southern Kent? And what are we supposed to do with the border with Ireland?

Immigration is now a global phenomenon with immense pressure from Asia and Africa. Europe must work together to control this. An isolated UK will not be able to control this by itself.

The economic progress of the Europe’s free economies has made us all better off and especially the UK. This helps us afford participation in defensive alliances like NATO and it supports the maintenance and development and of social services and the NHS.

We have come a long way in my lifetime, in building peace, prosperity, freedom to travel, to trade, to live where we choose – and nearly a million of us choose to live in Spain.

I am a former Export Sales Manager who experienced a divided Europe and the difficulties of trade before the EU. I queued up at Checkpoint Charlie in Berlin and across various Iron Curtain crossing points – and for hours to get through almost any border anywhere. And all the time trade was at the mercy of some change to tariffs or customs duties or industrial standards or arbitary political decisions.

All that has gone – no visas, no tariffs, no customs, the same standards right across the world’s biggest trading bloc with 508 million customers.

We get all this – free trade, enhanced security, convenience of travel, workers for our farms, access to Europe for traded financial services, a market for our products. And all for a net cost – thanks in large part to the Thatcher Rebate – of just £2.60 per person per week. That’s 37 pence a day, or £1.50 a day for a family of four. We’d be crazy to leave.

Sir Alan Sugar put it very well. “It’s not rocket science. Leaving the EU will mean less trade plus less investment plus lower confidence – which equals fewer jobs, lower wages, less growth and a weaker country.”

He also said, “This is not a general election. It won’t come round again in 5 years time.” He’s right, this is a decision for a lifetime.

The politics of antagonism must not be allowed to return. In a globally connected world isolation and non-cooperation will not work.

I appeal to you all, for the sake of Britain, for Britain’s future and for that of our children and grandchildren, to choose to remain in Europe.

Choose peace, prosperity, security, co-operation and fellowship.

Choose the future, not an imagined past.

Choose to stay together, and together to build a better world.


Nick Hollinghurst
County Councillor for Tring."

G6JPG

[snip]

HanSpan wrote: »

He also said, “This is not a general election. It won’t come round again in 5 years time.” He’s right, this is a decision for a lifetime.

[snip]
Yes, that is something that's been bugging me too - but of course I see it as "last chance to escape". I've been increasingly thinking we - and all other member states - should have such a referendum, at least once every ten to fifteen years; if I thought there would be such a chance, I might well give the "new deal" a chance - as I've said, I have actually read it and it could work. But knowing that even our own politicians, let alone the rest of EU*, are highly unlikely to give us another one in the near future, I feel I must get off this train.

(* I heard one of them - I think it was Mr. Delors, but I don't want to name anyone because the less-acceptable face of leave tend to do so in a rabble-rousing manner - say that after this one, there should be no more. I think that was the point at which I decided, actually.)