MoneySaving Poll: How will you be voting in the EU referendum?

supermario1965

If we stay in the EU, we'll get 20 million Muslim migrants in the next 10 years. This alone is enough to make me vote LEAVE.

G6JPG

[big snip]

HanSpan wrote: »

We'd have to renegotiate trade with every single country in the EU

This is one of the things that has puzzled me: are individual EU countries allowed to make separate agreements with an outside country? I'd have thought we'd be renegotiating trade with the EU - more or less as if it was one big country. (Whether of course that'd be any easier than negotiating with twentywhateveritis countries separately, I don't know; there'd only be one lot of negotiations, which should involve less effort, but it'd be with a very powerful entity, which is of course not good.)
[snip]

If forced to make a decision at the outset I would probably have voted "IN" as I am naturally risk averse so have the "better the devil you know" attitude, but no more than that.
I would have been (even now still would be) perfectly OK with being persuaded to the "OUT" side if there were genuine concrete reasons, with at least some degree of likelihood, for that side - but I just haven't seen any.

I can't say concrete reasons. I just have a feeling that we're losing control of lots of things - and I don't mainly mean the economy; I think leaving would/will give a period of hardship. Thus, by the essence of this forum (MSE), one should choose stay.

I guess I'm talking about sovereignty, but I hate to use that word, as it has a lot of baggage with it - if nothing else, it makes people think about territory (provokes talks of "British soil", which I find irritating in the extreme), and wars. Which I'm not; the empire was gone long before I was born, and I don't think there's any desire to try to change that back.

There's scaremongering non-facts and complete rubbish from both sides and little else.

Very true.
[snip]

OK there's the Cameron's supposed agreement that I believe as far as I could throw him - but even without it there's no need for radical change (and expenditure) and overall we've done pretty OK in the EU.

Having actually read it, I think the agreement is actually very good - more or less the best we could have got, and certainly better than I'd have expected. I don't really connect it with Cameron. As I've said in an earlier post, I don't think at least some of the other countries want it, but we could try to hold them to it. If it holds, we won't be part of the EU like any other member, we'll be a special case, sort of half in - like we are now (with our refund and other such things), but significantly more so. I'm not at all sure how that would work out.

Whereas for leaving it's all far too vague with potential "plans" to spend the maybe savings umpty times over and over. There's no certainty - nothing even approaching something approaching certainty - about what would be the plan for anything at all if we vote out.
Even if Cameron were ousted for Boris what would he do? He's not said? Or if there were a snap election - what would any of the parties do if they came to power and we'd voted out? No plans - nothing. That fills me with dread.

Not just the politicians: as far as I'm aware, nobody - companies, organisations, etc. - seems to be actually planning: this seems to me to be poor; most companies should have contingency plans for all sorts of things (fire, flood, terrorism, collapse of critical suppliers, ...), so not making any plans for post-exit seems rather unwise. (Come to think of it, no plans for post-stay either, AFAIK; the new agreement comes into force the day we decide to stay, it says so in it.)
[snip]

happyinflorida

edl2011 wrote: »

If Britain leaves the EU then I will be leaving Britain, albeit reluctantly.
It would be the final nail in the coffin, signifying at last the complete takeover of braindead, blinkered bigots in a once proud and respected country.
So terribly sad.
We still haven't found out what Martin has to say on the issue!?

We have and the maggots told people he's voting to stay in.

Martin also keeps telling us about bargains with the worst non tax paying companies like Amazon, Boots etc.

Do I think Martin has an agenda - yes and it's not a good one.

I have learnt not to trust him anymore.

happyinflorida

OneLeggedPig wrote: »

If we vote leave, the Tories will have a bonfire of employment rights and all sorts of safety regulations.

Who was called to answer questions yesterday over his mistreatment of his staff? The owner of Sports Direct.

This is whilst we have been a member of the EU - the EU did not help his staff or any other staff being badly treated.

This scare mongering is utter lies.

Get the conservatives out of power forever - that way people will be better off in the UK.

happyinflorida

HanSpan wrote: »

Cough. Despite the fact I am likely to vote "IN" it is very clear that both sides are using childish underhanded tactics to try and win people over.
Martin Lewis has said quite clearly he will not support either side, although the quote of his words was accurate - when backed into a corner he said in his opinion (which I value):
“On balance of probability, it is more likely we’ll have less money in our pockets if we vote to leave”

So if the money in your pocket is your only concern then IN is probably the way to go.

Of course the decision for some/many? is based on more than just that. Today Martin has published his "how to vote" article which I am off to read now (note: it is not which way to vote, but how to decide which way to vote. I have no idea what it says as I've not even opened it yet!)

Do tell me why Martin didn't mention the fact that we are all forced to pay 20% VAT on almost everything we pay for - this is the tax used to pay for the EU.

It has angered me that he would say such a thing as it'll cost us more if we leave because that simply is not true. For every £5 we spend, we'll have £1 given back to us. We'll have far more money in our pockets when VAT is stopped. That is unless this corrupt government decide to keep the money - I hope that will get people off their backsides and protesting in the streets, like we all did about the poll tax. It should bring down the government and that is something I would love to see.

G6JPG

(Are you actually in Florida?)

happyinflorida wrote: »

We'll have far more money in our pockets when VAT is stopped.

Who said anything about VAT stopping? I've certainly not heard anyone (on either side) say anything of the sort.

That is unless this corrupt government decide to keep the money

I don't see either colour government stopping any tax.

- I hope that will get people off their backsides and protesting in the streets, like we all did about the poll tax.

Yes, people don't like a fair tax. They'd far rather someone else pay it. I'd have been significantly worse off under that, but I still thought it was fairer, and was in favour of it.

It should bring down the government and that is something I would love to see.

What would - VAT not stopping? I don't think so.

edl2011

"Will I ever have a say in how my money is spent?"
The UK, as the 3rd-largest member of the EU, has the 3rd-largest representation in the EU Parliament - 73 MEPs.

HanSpan

happyinflorida wrote: »

We have and the maggots told people he's voting to stay in.

Actually he hasn't. He has said that he risk averse which is pushing him to a remain vote and he is currently about 55% stay 45% leave. I read that very clearly as him leaving himself open to the possibility that percentage could change depending on what he learns between now and the vote.

happyinflorida wrote: »

Martin also keeps telling us about bargains with the worst non tax paying companies like Amazon, Boots etc.

That's the job of the MSE site - to show people the best deals in terms of ££ and nothing else. What judgements people make about where they shop from a moral standpoint is something completely separate and IMO not something MSE should be meddling in. I'm sure if they started telling you to buy from xyz because they don't support hunting and fishing, or do borrow from abc because they are all Christians and only invest in Christian funds you'd not be happy. Where would the line be on appropriate moral judgements? How we all decide those sorts of things is not MSE's business and I am very happy they stay out of it!

happyinflorida wrote: »

Do I think Martin has an agenda - yes and it's not a good one.

[FONT=&quot]What do you think it is? I'm genuinely interested.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

happyinflorida wrote: »

I have learnt not to trust him anymore.

That is of course your prerogative, but who DO you trust to tell the truth in all this? I've seen very very few people write anything that I couldn't pick a hole in as being a downright lie within the first few lines.

[FONT=&quot]You may not agree with Martin's point of view but at least he has given pros and cons for both sides and written responsibly - explaining very clearly that no-on can know for sure what will happen either way.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

HanSpan

OneLeggedPig wrote: »

If we vote leave, the Tories will have a bonfire of employment rights and all sorts of safety regulations.

happyinflorida wrote: »

Who was called to answer questions yesterday over his mistreatment of his staff? The owner of Sports Direct.

This is whilst we have been a member of the EU - the EU did not help his staff or any other staff being badly treated.

This scare mongering is utter lies.

This I totally agree with.
Scaremongering from either side is totally unhelpful and just pushes people to polar views based on absolutely nothing.

There are !!!!!! employers in and out of the EU, there are !!!!!! people who will find ways round the rules, or just break them, because they have power and money and just because they can - again both inside the EU and outside. None of this has a jot of relevance to the choice we all need to make about which way to vote on a far more important and broad subject than any one hot button issue.

happyinflorida wrote: »

Get the conservatives out of power forever - that way people will be better off in the UK.

[FONT=&quot]Again this I entirely agree with! But voting in or out of the EU won't accomplish this. And ~I fear that recent history shows there are still far too many people hoodwinked by the conservatives' lies who will still vote the !!!!!!s back in next time [/FONT]

HanSpan

happyinflorida wrote: »

Do tell me why Martin didn't mention the fact that we are all forced to pay 20% VAT on almost everything we pay for - this is the tax used to pay for the EU.

It has angered me that he would say such a thing as it'll cost us more if we leave because that simply is not true. For every £5 we spend, we'll have £1 given back to us. We'll have far more money in our pockets when VAT is stopped. That is unless this corrupt government decide to keep the money - I hope that will get people off their backsides and protesting in the streets, like we all did about the poll tax. It should bring down the government and that is something I would love to see.

The EU actually would be perfectly happy if the UK govt reduced VAT to 15%, it's our own govt that chose to set it at 20% and not lower. 15% is the lower limit for most things across the EU.
However the EU are actually currently looking at ways to make VAT rules more flexible so that the UK can, for instance, charge no vat on sanitary products - that is mainly in response to the UK pressing for change after the degree of pressure the public put on our govt about it.

As to having more money if we leave I'm afraid it's just not that simple. It is in fact far too complicated for me to understand all the ins and outs but we put money in and get money back and have things invested in by the EU and invest in other things in the EU and..........
So I've pinched Martin's calculation which shows we in fact get back more than half: "The annual fees to the EU in 2015 were £18bn, but we get a rebate, after that the fees are £13bn, plus there’s the money the EU spends in the UK; so what it actually costs us is £8.5bn." so actually put in £5 get about £2.60 back. But that of course is not the whole story of shy Martin, and various other economists, predict we would b worse off if we leave.

What we do benefit from a lot is being part of the single market and having access to that. If we wish to continue that we will still have to pay for it - as do Switzerland, Iceland and Norway for instance - but without the benefit of being able to have any influence on the decisions made by the EU that would affect us anyway as part of that market. Oh & we'd have to continue to allow freedom of movement within the single market area.

If we chose to leave the single market (which I can't see ever happening as even the leave side have said leaving the EU doesn't mean leaving the EEA and our parliament would have to be totally bonkers to do that!) we would lose our automatic access to that market and would have to renegotiate - as G6JPG says it would probably be with the EU as a whole (I don't know enough about this to be sure either way), and we would also then have to negotiate with other countries separately - countries that we currently deal with as part of the EU.
How much would all that work cost? And what sort of deals would we get - I am pretty certain not as good as we now get with the EU, or with other countries, as we have far less to offer than the EU as a whole.
That's before you get to the fact that we would have to replicate loads of work that is done for the single market as a whole - the one that immediately springs to my mind is the whole cosmetics register thing which would be a lot of work and cost lots to set up. I bet there are similar things we would have to replicate across swathes of other areas.

All of that is before you even start to consider that pretty much everyone, on both sides, agrees we would have a recession as a result of leaving, and that by its nature would make us less well off in the short-medium term.

On balance I am inclined to believe the rather extensive number of economic experts who predict we will be slightly worse off if we leave. Martin is amongst them but not the only one by far.