Quote, misquotes & the truth about my appearance in the ‘Stronger In Europe’ leaflet



  • marleyboy
    marleyboy Posts: 16,698 Forumite
    First Post Combo Breaker
    Albeit we did get the leaflet, it went straight in the bin along with all the other referendum leaflets bar one - which was returned to Mr Camecon via FREEPOST, as I considered that I had paid for such a leaflets distribution via my taxes.

    I did hear the rumours of Mr Lewis quotes being presented without his knowledge, but its nothing new and of no surprise when it comes to policies.
    "Marleyboy you are a legend!"
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    Marleyboy - You are, indeed, a legend.
  • Fitzmichael
    Fitzmichael Posts: 165 Forumite
    First Anniversary Combo Breaker First Post
    Patjan wrote: »
    if indeed that would really be the case if we left the EU - but regain our sovereignty and judicial independence, to decide how we, the electorate, wish our country to be governed.
    Is it really possible that you think that 'we, the electorate', by a large majority, could ever force the governing elite, of any 'colour', to dismantle the traditional Britain (or at least England) whose essence, that they so love, lies in its social and economic stratification, with the poverty, unhappiness and poor health, inc of children, and the poor education they obtain? The system they run is designed not to provide an opportunty for that:- you don't have to have studied PPE to read the 'textbooks' that advise letting the people think they have power while making sure they don't.
    Anthony Eden, in a moment of honesty rare in politicians, told the HoC approvingly (almost a century ago) "We have not got democratic government in this country. We never had it and I venture to suggest ... that we shall never have it. What we have done ... is to broaden the basis of our oligarchy." Isn't that clear enough?
  • wozearly
    wozearly Posts: 202 Forumite
    First Anniversary Combo Breaker
    edited 25 May 2016 at 9:55PM
    drape wrote: »
    [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]...[/FONT]I have to produce audited accounts that have to be "signed off" by auditors. The EU also have to produce audited accounts each year however it is my understanding that for the past 12 years the auditors have REFUSED to sign off the accounts and thus attest to the accuracy of those accounts. Those auditors have serious misgivings as to the completeness and honesty of the figures.[/FONT]

    It's not often a good idea to [FONT=&quot]disagree with someone on the internet[/FONT], but the "auditors not signing of[FONT=&quot]f the accou[FONT=&quot]nts" story is[FONT=&quot] a fairly well-document[FONT=&quot]ed myth[FONT=&quot]. For example[FONT=&quot]: [FONT=&quot]https://fullfact.org/europe/has-eu-budget-been-rejected-auditors-past-18-years/

    In a nutshell, the accounts have been signed off eve[FONT=&quot]ry year, and the assessment of [/FONT]mon[FONT=&quot]ey [FONT=&quot]paid [/FONT]in[/FONT] and owed by [FONT=&quot]nations [FONT=&quot]typically passes with [FONT=&quot]limited error[/FONT]s. The part which remain[FONT=&quot]s stubbornly difficult is where money is paid out,[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] [FONT=&quot]of which about 4% is assessed as being wrongly paid out[FONT=&quot].

    [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]A[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]nything over 2% in error for the total budget for any reason triggers the auditors to note that the results are "mater[/FONT][/FONT]ially [FONT=&quot]a[/FONT]ffected by error[FONT=&quot]", which has happened[FONT=&quot] for the last 18 or so years. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]So far[FONT=&quot], so [FONT=&quot]worrying. But [FONT=&quot]most of this[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]is [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]due to minor non-fraudulent [FONT=&quot]errors[/FONT] in the [FONT=&quot]complex rules around payment[FONT=&quot], e.g. the [FONT=&quot]payment was correct[FONT=&quot],[/FONT] but the process was in error and so technical[FONT=&quot]ly no money should have been paid[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot] according to the accountants. The ECA estimated potential fraud [FONT=&quot]([FONT=&quot]ie, suspicious enou[FONT=&quot]gh that they [FONT=&quot]rec[FONT=&quot]ommended[/FONT][/FONT] investigating it further[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot])[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] in around 2% of all errors, so somewhere in the region of 0.08% of the total bu[FONT=&quot]dget.[/FONT]

    [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]That's still not great, but at this point it's worth noting that [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]about [FONT=&quot]80% [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]f spending is under [/FONT]direct control of the nation states (ie, the EU has nothing to do with it), so only [FONT=&quot]somewhere in the region of 0.015% of the EU budget is potentially [FONT=&quot]fra[FONT=&quot]udulent and within the remit of t[FONT=&quot]he[FONT=&quot] Brussels administration to address.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]For the EU [FONT=&quot]admin[FONT=&quot]istration itself to t[FONT=&quot]ake responsibility for d[FONT=&quot]irect [/FONT]acti[FONT=&quot]on[/FONT] t[FONT=&quot]o [/FONT]reduc[FONT=&quot]e[/FONT] fraud [FONT=&quot]outside of its direct [FONT=&quot]remit[/FONT][/FONT], [FONT=&quot]it[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]w[FONT=&quot]ould [FONT=&quot]need [/FONT]to ste[FONT=&quot]p up additional controls over nation states[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]. [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Including the UK, as we[FONT=&quot] have our own home-grown Britis[FONT=&quot]h-born [/FONT]fraudsters [FONT=&quot]misapp[FONT=&quot]ropriat[FONT=&quot]ing[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] EU budget spend, as the Sun and other newspapers have picked up in the past.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

    [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]However, i[FONT=&quot]n the interests of balance, I'd also point out [FONT=&quot]m[/FONT][/FONT]any of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the cut-and-dr[FONT=&quot]ied facts in favour of [FONT=&quot]Remain [FONT=&quot]don't stand up to [FONT=&quot]any kind of scrutiny either.

    [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]T[FONT=&quot]he whole thing has got a bit silly, really. [FONT=&quot]It's [FONT=&quot]fortunate we're not being expected as individuals to go out and [FONT=&quot]vote on [FONT=&quot]an issue o[FONT=&quot]f national importance based on [FONT=&quot]which collection of facts is less ludicrious.[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]..[/FONT][/FONT]
    drape wrote: »
    I have no doubt whatsoever that the whole EU Operation is riddled with people lining their pockets at our expense and the sooner we rid ourselves of this festering pit of profligacy the better.:j

    Could well be. Completely unlike our own parliament, with it's trifilingly insignificant expenses scandal, of course. :beer:
  • wozearly
    wozearly Posts: 202 Forumite
    First Anniversary Combo Breaker
    There would be a few recounts.
    But the general principle in this country is if the result of an election is tied then the winner is decided by a coin toss / drawing of lots / etc.

    I think that's only the case for electing representatives.

    If it happened in a referendum where the result was expected to be binding, I imagine that while it was bogged down in recounts and legal challenges, Cameron would be rapidly doing some renegotiation in Europe in order to present a new proposal and suggest a second referendum as the first was clearly not going to settle the issue one way or the other.

    But I absolutely love the image of David Cameron and Boris Johnson sitting and staring intently as a returning officer flips a coin to decide "In" or "Out", with newspapers on tenterhooks as to whether they need to describe the returning officer as a quietly courageous British lion with history's hand on his shoulder, or a meddling busybody probably secretly in the pay of some mandarin in Brussels (depending on which side the coin lands).
  • I find it astonishing that even though we have been in the EU for over 40 years the level of ignorance about what the EU is and what is does is incredibly high. I hear comments such as 'I never signed up for this;' or 'they never sign off their accounts;' 'bendy bananas;' 'they tell us what to do.'

    I would politely ask everyone, leavers or remainers, to do their own research into what the EU is and what it does. Find answers to basic questions: we joined the EEC. Now it's the EU. Why? What does that mean? If you want to leave you should understand what it is that it does that you don't like.

    In fact the EU does surprisingly little. But it does bring 28 member states together so instead of shouting at each other from a distance about things they may disagree on they have the opportunity to talk face-to-face and iron out their differences. Sometimes this is not possible, and the EU will back away.

    The EU is not about taking over, it is about encouraging integration. I live in Lancashire; when I go to Yorkshire I find the world (more or less) the same. As I write this I am in deepest Denmark. Funnily enough it looks quite similar here too. Over the decades the EU has not only brought countries together so we can work, rest and play with each other. It has also encouraged non-official links between nations; think of how many towns are twinned; think of the educational links across Europe. These are not part of the EU, but are the benefit of the closer integration of all countries. We all gain.

    If we come out what changes? I think most people, giving it two seconds thought, will say 'close our borders!' But think about that for a minute. Who are you going to stop coming in? The Germans? The French? The Poles? If you say yes to one or more of these, what happens when they say 'no more Brits?' Do you honestly think this is a sensible thing for our country? The answer is never black and white, and closing our borders will mean a reduction in imports. (You can't have BMWs without the associated German workers that help to import them.)

    If we come out the first thing that will inevitably happen is we devalue our currency. In other words your wages are worth less. Not in the UK, but as soon as you try to buy anything from abroad it will be more expensive. We can sell more, granted, as our exports will be cheaper; but holidays, for example, will go up in price.

    Remember, if we leave will things get better? Do you really think so?
  • BernardM
    BernardM Posts: 398 Forumite
    First Anniversary Combo Breaker
  • BernardM
    BernardM Posts: 398 Forumite
    First Anniversary Combo Breaker
  • Interesting posts BernardM.

    Just to comment on them, as you clearly haven't.

    These are some of the luvvies...: what is that post supposed to mean? Rich people want to remain? Boris is rich, but he's not on the list. Yet wasn't it revealed he earned £0.6m last year alone?

    Don't you think your post was rather selective, or do you think those who will read it are rather stupid? I can't see the point it is making.

    MPs are a selective bunch: Who'd have guessed it? What is this post saying? Change the voting system? Amen to that. Get rid of first-past-the-post and bring in a more proportional system, rather like the one, perhaps, we use to vote in EU elections.

    So to be clear, the EU elections are MORE democratic than the UK ones. Interesting.

    Norway: I can't see the lies told to Norway. There is nothing in the post, so I'll pass on commenting on that.

    Finally youth unemployment: Yes that is terrible. But if they came out of the eurozone would it be better? Is high unemployment not a feature more of our modern economy with its constant demands for cheaper products and greater automation than the euro?

    You don't explain why it is so high, so I assume you do not know.

    Thanks for making these points. All pointless.
  • BernardM
    BernardM Posts: 398 Forumite
    First Anniversary Combo Breaker
  • wozearly
    wozearly Posts: 202 Forumite
    First Anniversary Combo Breaker
    BernardM wrote: »

    ...and from the same dataset, Germany and the Netherlands, who are also founding Eurozone members, have two of the lowest youth unemployment rates in Europe. The U.K. Isn't too far behind either, for that matter. Germany is also comfortably ahead of Switzerland and Norway (both non-EU members).

    Meanwhile, South Africa has a worse youth unemployment rate than anyone listed above, and some of the lowest youth unemployment rates in the world are found in Rwanda, Cambodia and Benin.

    I'm really struggling to see what the youth unemployment figures add to the debate. Yes, it's a blight, but the reasons behind it and solutions to it are a bit more complex than "Are you in the EU or not"
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