My E7/Heating solution!

newmy

Hi all.

I've been lurking these forums recently trying to work out how best to heat my new flat, which has only an electric supply, no gas. Some of the threads on here have been enormously useful, and I feel I have a much clearer understanding - a lot of you seem to know what you're talking about!

The flat is on the 9th floor of a 1960s block, with concrete walls that have stud walls to the inside, no insulation just an air gap. It has a pretty large open plan kitchen/living room (about 7x6 metres) with two outside walls, then 2 small bedrooms (about 4x2) with short outside walls and a larger bedroom (about 4.5x3.) There's also a small bathroom and seperate loo. Windows are double glazed units, though these are a bit aged now.

My conclusions have lead me to the following, so just wanted to check and see what others might do in this case.

Living space: Elnur Ecombi 2.6kw/1.2kw - http://www.juiceelectricalsupplies.co.uk/elnur-ecombi-storage-heater.html?child=2022 (I may add another of these, or a bog standard storage heater in due course as there are electrical outlets for another one on the opposite side of the room)
Bedrooms: Either the 1kw/1.5kw version of these https://www.alertelectrical.com/dimplex-oil-filled-electric-radiators-0-75kw-white.html or these http://www.qvsdirect.com/1500w-convector-panel-heater-ip24-mechanical-thermostat-24-timer which I'll attach to plug in digital timers that can be controlled from an app, have them come on for an hour or so morning and night.

Bathroom will have a heated towel rack, and small loo may have some kind of wall mounted fan heater. Water heating will be by a Tribune HE Slimline Direct.

My hesitations are that one of the small bedrooms will be used by me as a study, so when I'm at home, it'll be one of the more frequently occupied rooms. Would people be inclined to put a small storage heater or storage/convector combi in there instead for days when I'll be at home all day? To save me from being in there in the middle of the day using an electric heater on peak rates. The main bedroom will also be for a lodger, so I expect at evenings and weekends they may be inclined to be in there, so should I be looking at a storage/convector combi for there aswell? I do worry about storage heaters in a bedroom though, as I know they can get hot overnight.

My supplier will be "Octopus Energy" whose rates seem pretty amazing compared to other suppliers. 10.15p peak rate, 5.67p off peak, 20p standing charge a day.

Last thing is I see conflicting arguments about whether storage heaters should go on outside walls. Some say definitely not, whereas others actively advise it! This website is pretty useful and I've been inclined to trust it, so is this wrong?http://www.storageheaters.com/storage-heater-instructions.htm The wall it makes most sense to put it on is an outside wall, so would some kind of insulation board behind it help?

I'm inclined to ramble so this is already too long, any help gratefully received!

Thanks.

Cardew

Excellent post.


You seem to have thought about and covered most angles.


Much depends on what heat is coming from the flats below.(and how much you lose through your ceiling!) Also how high are your rooms?


I personally wouldn't put storage heaters in the two small bedrooms and probably not the larger bedroom.


Have you attempted to determine the heat loss from the poorly insulated living area? I wonder if 2.6kW/1.2kW is sufficient for 42m2. 500 square feet is the size of many modern well insulated 1 bed flats, and even they have more heating.

newmy

Hi Cardew, thanks for the response. Yours is a name that made frequent appearances on the threads I read about storage heaters and E7, so thanks for your input here too.

Regrettably I have very little idea on the heat retaining performance of the floors/ceilings. They are solid concrete though, so at any rate I expect they will themselves store some heat, so if my neighbour below me is a heat fiend this could work in my favour! They're reasonably low at about 2.25 metres.

I'm inclining towards panel heaters, or even just some free standing heaters that can be brought out in winter for the bedrooms/study for morning and evening use. Though I am still concerned for the days when I'm sat at my desk all day relying on peak-time heating. I could put in something like this: http://www.electricaleurope.com/en/Elnur-085Kw-4-Brick-Static-Manual-Night-Charge-Control-Storage-Heater/m-1704.aspx

I am thinking of going a bit belt and braces though, installing an E7 line to the study and bigger bedroom (there is for some reason already one in the other bedroom) to see how things go bills-wise this coming winter, so the option's always there to add some cheaper stored energy in future.

I think I calculated that I'd need a total of around 6kw in the open plan living/dining/kitchen area, so in time I'll probably just add a bog standard 3.4kw storage heater in the other spot that can take one. I'll wait til the Autumn to see how the lone Elnur copes. I've probably been suckered in a bit by their marketing blurb, but their Ecombi range do seem to have a lot more going for them than a standard storage heater. They don't appear to make any bogus claims on their website, which makes a nice change to many other electric heater manufacturers.

I did say I rambled didn't I. Sorry.

System

I always hated my storage heaters I thought they were so expensive and always ran out of heat I dreaded the winter.

However my housing installed new dimplex storage heaters and i can honestly say they are the best heaters I have ever had I prefer them better than gsh as my flat is warm 24/7 they store so much heat it's lovely.

I also have one in the bedroom and think it's definitely worth it as it keeps the room warm, and cosy I would say Definitely put one in your bedrooms. My bedroom has only a 1.5kw and it's never been on full, plus with having a heater in bedroom is think it helps keep the flat warmer.

You could always get someone in to renew the rubber draught proof round the plastic windows I had mine done a few yrs ago that helped a lot as the old stuff was past its best.

Your tarif seems good but also but try and register on sites where they do collective switch as there is cheaper tariffs through them.

Good luck with your heating ��

Cardew

newmy wrote: »

I am thinking of going a bit belt and braces though, installing an E7 line to the study and bigger bedroom (there is for some reason already one in the other bedroom) to see how things go bills-wise this coming winter, so the option's always there to add some cheaper stored energy in future.

Surely you wouldn't need a 'E7 line to the study' as all electricity is(or should be) at off-peak rates during the 7 hours. Thus a small storage heater on a simple 13amp plug, via a timer, would suffice.

lstar337

Hi newmy, welcome to the forum.

newmy wrote: »

Some of the threads on here have been enormously useful, and I feel I have a much clearer understanding - a lot of you seem to know what you're talking about!

Thanks, though these days it seems to be mostly about steering posters away from 'magic clay' type heaters that will cost them a fortune to run.

Here are some of my thoughts on your post.

newmy wrote: »

The flat is on the 9th floor of a 1960s block, with concrete walls that have stud walls to the inside, no insulation just an air gap.

If you have an opportunity to fill the air gap with insulation, take it. It will massively help your heating situation.

newmy wrote: »

Windows are double glazed units, though these are a bit aged now.

If the glass units are not blown (fogged up inside), and they are not draughty, I wouldn't worry about them too much. Close up any draughts though, and look at blinds/heavy curtains if you feel they are causing a problem.

newmy wrote: »

My conclusions have lead me to the following <snip>

Good use of proper storage in the living spaces and direct electric for the bedrooms. However, I suggest you take a look at Dimplex Quantum heaters as the improved insulation will help keep that important heat in during the day. This would also be a benefit for your longer used bedroom and possibly your office, as the Quantum will not boil the bedrooms at night, but will give you access to cheap heat during the day if you need it.

Moving back to your living space, I have to agree with Cardew here:

Cardew wrote: »

Have you attempted to determine the heat loss from the poorly insulated living area? I wonder if 2.6kW/1.2kW is sufficient for 42m2. 500 square feet is the size of many modern well insulated 1 bed flats, and even they have more heating.

The last thing you want is to run out of cheap heat, so oversize your living space heater if you can afford it!

newmy wrote: »

Bathroom will have a heated towel rack, and small loo may have some kind of wall mounted fan heater.

I really hate those wall mounted fan heaters. I used to have one, and if your bathroom is poorly insulated they are next to useless. I would have to put it on an hour before a shower, and all throughout, but would still be very cold getting out the shower. Ours heated the air roughly a foot around it, move further than that and you couldn't feel it. Now I can't slag it off without offering an alternative, so I would suggest you look at infra red heaters. This can lead to shark infested waters though, so only look at them if the space can be fully covered by the infrared, and do not pay tons of money. There are units that fit around a light fitting that should be sufficient. These units will heat you body, and not wastefully heat the bathroom air.

Good luck.

newmy

Thanks all for the further input.

Can't really reply in full now short of saying I've considered Dimplex Quantum for a long time, but they are just prohibitively expensive for me right now unfortunately. Even the lowest rated one is over £500. I have a budget of around £1000 for the whole flat. Money no object I would be putting in a full Quantum system, but sadly that's not possible!

Out of interest though, when looking at the Quantum, presumably I'm looking at the 'input rating' to determine their kwh rating. For example their highest rating one has an input rating of 3.3kw, but output of 1.5kw. I assume this would put it in the same rating as a traditional storage heater rated at 3.3kw? Otherwise the Quantum seems to be quite small, or is it its storage capabilities that mean it simply doesn't require as much power? Sorry if I'm not clear, as much research as I've done I do still find it all a bit puzzling!

Richie-from-the-Boro

IMO

- room in cubic meters ÷ 20 - minimum crude 'guesstimate' of heat needed in kW for any room
- always internal, never ever on an outside wall
- all rooms need to be ventilated to remove moisture
- cold air outside is always sucked into a building

Cooking and bathrooms make most moisture, short bursts of mechanical ventilation can take care of most moisture. Night store heaters will always leak [transfer] heat into the room on the other side of the wall they are on. Example a big storage heater will hold 23.1kWh, if you ÷ that by the 17 hours its switched off it will release 1.35kWh of heat per hour for 17 hours before its empty.

Lifestyle, in all day ?, out at work all day ? disabled or retired ? is an important input into decision making. In a block of flats you do not and can never own the walls & roof, if you did fill your walls on the 9th floor, it would go all the way down to the basement. My general rule is I would always install 30% more storage capacity than I need, I bask in 22°C day & night, have cheapish bills, have never ever used a 'damper' in 35+ years - and use supplementary extra bursts of heat only a couple of times a year as we go into and out of the winter period - you decide.

newmy

Thanks Richie.

Using your calculation, the guesstimate for capacity in the large living area comes to around 5. So if I were to install two high rated storage heaters I'd be covered (Though this again raises my question about the Dimplex Quantum. Their highest rated one has an output of 1.5kw, but input is 3.3kw. They certainly have a high storage capacity of 23.1kw, so I'm assuming it's the 3.3kw that's important), or I could even get away with a large one and a slightly smaller one, though this would go against the sound advice to over store.

I work nearly full time (repeating pattern of 3 days work, 2 off, 2 work, 2 off) so I'm mostly out, but have a few more days spent at home per month than most. Though I'm young(ish!) I have a few health issues which mean I prefer a room on the warmer side during winter.

I am now, after reading this post back and looking through the forum again, considering going Quantum. I've found the highest rating one at not much more than the heater I'd originally planned for my main room. My current budget can cover this, but I'll just have to save over the next few months to add a second on the opposite side of the room.

I think I'll trial some cheap free-standing direct heaters for the bedrooms/study for next winter, just to see how my bills cope with them coming on for a few hours each day (I get up really early on workdays and am out the house by about 7.15, so at least my bedroom would still be on E7 rate then). I don't want to fix things to the wall that end up costing a fortune and I want rid of. However, if this method turns out to be practical, I may get some wall mounted panels. If not, I'll consider other alternatives.

Anyone any recommendations as to sourcing the Quantums? This has proved to be the cheapest I can find them but others may know of elsewhere. http://www.electricpoint.com/heating/electric-heating/dimplex-quantum-energy-system/dimplex-quantum-heaters.html

A related but slightly different point - whilst I've not moved in yet, I've been in the flat at various times during the day and have noticed the meter flick over to the low rate at about midday, then noticed it's flicked back at about 7pm. The E7 seems to be taking affect during the wrong 12-7. I'm guessing I need to speak with my supplier about this as presumably there's something wrong with the radio teleswitch?

Thanks.

Cardew

newmy wrote: »

(Though this again raises my question about the Dimplex Quantum. Their highest rated one has an output of 1.5kw, but input is 3.3kw. They certainly have a high storage capacity of 23.1kw, so I'm assuming it's the 3.3kw that's important), or I could even get away with a large one and a slightly smaller one, though this would go against the sound advice to over store.

Isn't the 3.3kW input for the storage capacity(7 x 3.3kW = 23.1kWh).


The 1.5kW output is the 24/7 output of the conventional heater in the Quantum 'package'


I know Richie is a Quantum fan, but it seems to me you could get a cheaper storage heater and a separate fan/panel heater for a lot less money.

newmy

Cardew wrote: »

Isn't the 3.3kW input for the storage capacity(7 x 3.3kW = 23.1kWh).

The 1.5kW output is the 24/7 output of the conventional heater in the Quantum 'package'

Isn't that a seperate rating? This is the info you get for each Quantum heater, this for the QM150:

Output Rating 1500W
Input Rating 3300W
Max Storage Capacity 23.1kWh
Boost Element Rating 1300W

So yes that makes sense, maximum storage capacity is 3.3kW x 7 as you say, I'm guessing this makes it comparible to a simple storage heater of the same rating? The 1.3kW boost element rating must be the conventional (emergency top up) heater element, so I'm now assuming that the 1.5kW output is the amount of heat it would kick out every hour from stored heat? Please forgive me, physics was never a strong point!

Cardew wrote: »

I know Richie is a Quantum fan, but it seems to me you could get a cheaper storage heater and a separate fan/panel heater for a lot less money.

In this instance I could run the risk of running out of stored heat I think. I suppose a fairer comparison would be two Quantum QM150 vs 2 traditional storage heaters with the same stored heat capacity. In each case, calculations suggest I'd have over the requirement of stored heat for the room (I think I need a combined total of just over 5kW stored per hour), the main variable being the superior control/programming offered by the Quantum. I.e I can tell it when I'm at work, at home all day, I can turn them offif we have a warmer day etc...whereas traditional type storage heaters don't discriminate on what is happening and just give out heat all day.

Hmm. Need to make a decision soon, the more research I do the more unsure I become.