VAT added to catering costs shortly before wedding

bod1467

Contra Preferentem applies here?

ARandomMiser

unholyangel wrote: »

No I'm not wrong as they need to tell the consumer the total price including taxes. As the bit I quoted said:
(c)the total price of the goods or services inclusive of taxes, or where the nature of the goods or services is such that the price cannot reasonably be calculated in advance, the manner in which the price is to be calculated;


As this page from trading standards also explains:
http://www3.hants.gov.uk/tradingstandards/tradingstandards-consumer/goodsandservices-consumers/tsguide-pricing.htm

Or this guidance: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/31900/10-1312-pricing-practices-guidance-for-traders.pdf
Which states:

The interesting part of the bit you quoted is the use of the word 'should' although in the next sentence it then uses the word 'must' .... That introduces an ambiguity.

Personally i think it is very poor practice to quote prices excluding vat on non-business transactions, i will leave the legality up to others though.

unholyangel

bod1467 wrote: »

Contra Preferentem applies here?

Eh possibly. I mean saying prices are subject to vat isn't the same as saying this price is inclusive/exclusive of vat and you are liable for it at a rate of 20%. Its just saying its conditional on VAT rates. Its the sort of term you'd include when advertising (invitation to treat) rather than when agreeing legally binding terms with any certainty.

But it was held in the appeal of CLP holdings v Singh that even where the general terms explicitly stated prices were exclusive of vat and the purchasers were liable for it, because the special terms (terms particular to that contract) said the purchase price was £130k and didn't say exclusive of vat, the purchasers were able to rely on the "normal rule" that the price was inclusive of VAT.

Of course that judgement was prior to CCRs, but gives a good indication imo of how careful retailers need to be rather than how careful customers need to be.

RBS_Sucks

Stevie_Palimo wrote: »

Wrong and as stated below VAT can be charged and this could be a simple case that business is flourishing and had to register for VAT, As long as the invoice stated subject to VAT then you either suck it up or cancel with a view to lose deposit if paid and have the hassle of finding another caterer.

In terms of negotiating well worth while calling them and explaining that money is tight for you and see if the will work out a deal to keep this on track.

WRONG. A business should be absolutely clear without any doubt on the price being charged. Not that we may or may not add VAT. The OP should have clarified this but equally the business could've used clearer terminology to avoid confusion. Regarding VAT and the business flourishing, the business would need to register for VAT at the exact time it went over the threshold and should know to expect this well before the time comes. On the basis of transactions at £5000 I suspect the business is well in advance of the threshold especially as they make mention of it. Smaller businesses are not normally as informed as to VAT requirements however if they demonstrated such organisation to put it into terms and conditions in advance of time then they would surely also be organised enough to know exactly when they exceeded the threshold to charge accordingly. Especially with bulky transactions like £5000.

Stevie_Palimo

RBS_Sucks wrote: »

WRONG. A business should be absolutely clear without any doubt on the price being charged. Not that we may or may not add VAT. The OP should have clarified this but equally the business could've used clearer terminology to avoid confusion. Regarding VAT and the business flourishing, the business would need to register for VAT at the exact time it went over the threshold and should know to expect this well before the time comes. On the basis of transactions at £5000 I suspect the business is well in advance of the threshold especially as they make mention of it. Smaller businesses are not normally as informed as to VAT requirements however if they demonstrated such organisation to put it into terms and conditions in advance of time then they would surely also be organised enough to know exactly when they exceeded the threshold to charge accordingly. Especially with bulky transactions like £5000.

Again as pointed out to you by several posters if the quote had subject to vat charges within it then this is perfectly fine to bill with the VAT my point was a for instance here and the only way they can look at a saving is by asking the caterer so.

stone7

Just pay cash.

unholyangel

Stevie_Palimo wrote: »

Again as pointed out to you by several posters if the quote had subject to vat charges within it then this is perfectly fine to bill with the VAT my point was a for instance here and the only way they can look at a saving is by asking the caterer so.

As has been pointed out to several posters by me, its a legal requirement of the CCRs that retailers must tell you the total price - inclusive of any taxes before the consumer is bound by the contract. Its only where this isn't possible that they can instead give you the method that will be used to calculate the price and their invoices before now don't even comply with the method of calculation part so they can't even seek to rely on that bit.

As has also been pointed out by me, case law predating the CCRs held that even if you have a term stating the price is excluding vat (which is not in any way ambiguous like "prices are subject to vat"), unless you state the price as £130 excluding vat then the customer can rely on the "normal rule" (which was the wording used in the judgement) that the price is inclusive of vat.

So far I've seen no one back up the assertion (that "subject to vat" allows the retailer to add on vat at any time they will it) with anything other than personal opinion. I'll take statute or case law over a random persons opinion any day of the week.

photome

Unholy Angel seems to be posting good advice, shame the OP hasn't been back

s_b

does this new invoice dated 2 weeks before the event show the vat registration number as well as the total amount

Stevie_Palimo

unholyangel wrote: »

As has been pointed out to several posters by me, its a legal requirement of the CCRs that retailers must tell you the total price - inclusive of any taxes before the consumer is bound by the contract. Its only where this isn't possible that they can instead give you the method that will be used to calculate the price and their invoices before now don't even comply with the method of calculation part so they can't even seek to rely on that bit.

As has also been pointed out by me, case law predating the CCRs held that even if you have a term stating the price is excluding vat (which is not in any way ambiguous like "prices are subject to vat"), unless you state the price as £130 excluding vat then the customer can rely on the "normal rule" (which was the wording used in the judgement) that the price is inclusive of vat.

So far I've seen no one back up the assertion (that "subject to vat" allows the retailer to add on vat at any time they will it) with anything other than personal opinion. I'll take statute or case law over a random persons opinion any day of the week.

I understand what you are saying but if this was a quote and said subject to VAT charges upon invoicing then they can justify this, It is after all about what the small print states and I don't believe we have the full picture here.