Fair Financial Separation (not married)

Hard_food_for_midas

My partner and I (we never married) have grown so far apart, that we no longer think it benefits either of us, or our children (12 & 10), to stay together. We were together 17 years. I have been out of the family home and living in the flat I used to rent out for 10 months. I’m very lucky to have had that. However, it’s been hellish. I’ve never experienced separation anxiety before. I felt very ill. It’s taken me this long to calm down a bit, but it still bubbles under the surface. Despite all outward appearances, I can tell it has been no holiday for my ex and our children either, even though they have each other and the family home with all goods and chattels and dog. :-(

Right now, we are going through the family mediation service and are at the stage where we have to fully disclose all financial information in the hope we can come up with a less expensive agreement that is as fair for all of us as possible. We are trying to avoid any further involvement of lawyers, as this is more money out of the pot for the family. - At first, we both sought individual legal advice and this raised concerns for both of us, as they were keen to play hard-ball with the other side. I’m not so naive as to think we may need to go there again, but we are asset rich and cash strapped, so worried too about costs, and would prefer to avoid it as much as possible.

I would like to hear from people on this forum, who have either been through it or have helped others go through it so I can learn from your experience and maybe others can learn from ours.

My aim:

We’ve not rushed into any agreement, as we want to manage this carefully, prioritising the kids and hopefully we can make a settlement fair to both parties.

Our view (most of the time) is to keep an eye on what would happen if anything happened to either of us. We need to safeguard what WE built together and hopefully ensure we prevent any 3rd party benefiting from what WE made.

Ideally, I would like to take everything that we built together over those 17 years and split it all in half – obviously, this would not include all the money I paid for all the goods in the house (or her credit cards etc,) just half of the equity, as what’s in her name is double what I have in mine. This seems fair.

History:

We bought a house in my partner's name back in 2004. She used the sale of her flat to pay down a large deposit. I put in £15K, but I have always paid the mortgage (interest only), all maintenance costs, most (if not all) of furniture and gadgets etc. These payments have more than surpassed all the deposit she initially put in. I’ve walked away and left all of it there. It was hard, but the kids wanted all those items to remain.

When we bought the house, I was able to let out the flat we used to live in and I had a buy-to-let flat nearby too. Year later, I also bought a flat miles away so we could work on it as a DIY project and we wanted to try living in another city. This lasted 6 months and we let it out. All 3 flats were in my name, so we put the house in hers.

Over the years, I have sold off 2 of the flats and paid off the mortgage on the last one. - The one I’m currently living in. I now have no money left from the other flats.

Access to children is fine and we agree:

Neither of us want the family home to be sold and the children upset.

Because my work takes me away from time to time, I cannot be the main carer.
Nor can I commit to a regular routine at the moment.
The children are far more comfortable at the house. My flat is not too homely because I’m not there enough, nor am I sure I want to stay here….

I also get sent a bill every month to pay half of the girl’s activities expenses, which is fair enough.

Where we disagree:

1) She thinks what’s in her name is hers and what’s in my name is mine. But,
the equity in the house is double what I have in the flat. So, I will be registering my interest in the property (see below)

2) Since moving out, I have continued to pay the mortgage. (The lawyer I went to recommended I do this until we have an agreement.) My ex says that is not me paying the mortgage, it is child maintenance. We try not to mention it as it gets us both angry.


The advice I need now is this:

1) I want to claim a right to a share in the family home. I need help completing this simple form HR1, https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/490269/HR1.pdf

a) Question 9 – Do I say Yes or No? If I say No, it is simply my application to register my interest in the family home.

If I say yes, it would be because I want my ex to have an interest in my flat to be fair, but can someone confirm, she would need to fill out a separate HR1 for this?

b) Question 10 – I think I just simply say No, as we have not been to Court. Is this correct?

2) We’ve had to have 3 valuations on the house and the flat. My ex is asking for the valuations to be back-dated to when we separated. It looks as though the family mediation service is saying this is not legally correct, it should be current valuations, but the FMS has asked us to get valuations for both dates just in case.

This is significant, as the increase for the family home is 6 times! any increase I may have had in the flat.

a) How do I ensure we go with current valuations?

b) Also, my ex is unlikely/unwilling to buy me out as she (nor her family, I think) can afford to do so, though this may offer a relatively straightforward way out.

In this case the valuation differential may merely be used to establish either my percentage or fixed sum in the house when it’s eventually sold. Is this correct?

3) If I go to the CSA – based on my earnings – I would be paying less than half of what I currently pay.

I guess I should be contacting CSA and ask them to tell me how much I should pay and just pay that as CM, correct? Does everyone pay the minimum or do they pay far more than CSA recommends if they feel they can afford it? Or should I just pay it into the separate bank accounts of the children?
[I’ve read someone else’s thread who advises setting up standing order to list CM maintenance payments.]

If you can help, I’d really appreciate it….thanks

mark5

Surely it needs to be the value on the date of the agreement, if you won the lottery on Saturday I have no doubt she would expect a share of that.

I would push for 50/50 and agree maintenance separately. If she doesn't agree get a good solicitor.

If your worried about upsetting the children you could agree to let her stay in the house until the youngest is 18 then sell and split 50/50.

theoretica

How large is the difference? And could your ex run the house, mortgage and children comfortably on the CSA amount? It might be worth doing calculations to see how it would work out to offer her more of the equity, either all of it on the house, or a sum her family can buy you out or she could remortgage up to (whose name is the mortgage in?) in return for accepting the CSA maintenance amount. If you had some of the equity in the house you would also have some of the liability for repairs etc.

On the other hand, you say that you can't be the main carer because of your career. How much are the children hampering her career?

Hard_food_for_midas

theoretica wrote: »

How large is the difference? And could your ex run the house, mortgage and children comfortably on the CSA amount? It might be worth doing calculations to see how it would work out to offer her more of the equity, either all of it on the house, or a sum her family can buy you out or she could remortgage up to (whose name is the mortgage in?) in return for accepting the CSA maintenance amount. If you had some of the equity in the house you would also have some of the liability for repairs etc.

On the other hand, you say that you can't be the main carer because of your career. How much are the children hampering her career?

The difference in valuations last year, you mean? Family home may have gone up £200-£300K, my flat £35-£50k.
Mortgage is in her name only.

Her career (currently) is not hampered by children.

warby68

Were your 3 flats and her house equity broadly equal in value at some stage?

What happened to the money from the 2 sold flats?

Why do you want to split your assets equally but not your debts?

Why have you always kept 'his and hers' assets?

Not meaning to pry as such but suspect whatever thought processes you had together in the past might be influencing her view now so that if you agreed good reasons for the asset split and structure in the past, why is it suddenly unfair now?

Not sure what is legally fair but get the feeling she may have a different take on things and reasons for that also.

mark5

theoretica wrote: »

How large is the difference? And could your ex run the house, mortgage and children comfortably on the CSA amount? It might be worth doing calculations to see how it would work out to offer her more of the equity, either all of it on the house, or a sum her family can buy you out or she could remortgage up to (whose name is the mortgage in?) in return for accepting the CSA maintenance amount. If you had some of the equity in the house you would also have some of the liability for repairs etc.

On the other hand, you say that you can't be the main carer because of your career. How much are the children hampering her career?

Be carful if you do this, I had a friend who let his ex keep the house instead of paying maintenance, she re mortgaged the house, wasted the money then the csa come chasing him for maintenance, not sure what happened in the end though as we lost contact.

princeofpounds

a) Question 9 – Do I say Yes or No? If I say No, it is simply my application to register my interest in the family home.

If I say yes, it would be because I want my ex to have an interest in my flat to be fair, but can someone confirm, she would need to fill out a separate HR1 for this?

My reading would be that it is for her to make this declaration if she chooses to follow up on the flat, not for you to make it now. I do not think she will do this, as you both want to protect your home rights on the larger home.


Clearly there is no other home rights charge registered as of now, so the answer should be no.


I am no expert mind you.

b) Question 10 – I think I just simply say No, as we have not been to Court. Is this correct?

Looks like it to me.

2) We’ve had to have 3 valuations on the house and the flat. My ex is asking for the valuations to be back-dated to when we separated.....

a) How do I ensure we go with current valuations?

She is indeed likely to be wrong, if this ever goes to court at least. But at the moment it is just mediation, so you can't ensure anything. Best to see how the mediator approaches that question.

In this case the valuation differential may merely be used to establish either my percentage or fixed sum in the house when it’s eventually sold. Is this correct?

It depends on the eventual settlement, but it is not unusual for a property to be preserved as the home for the children and then sold when they reach majority. In which case yes, the valuation would be used as a baseline for this (% vs. fixed sum depends on the specifics of the situation, how and when you both contributed to the properties)

I guess I should be contacting CSA and ask them to tell me how much I should pay and just pay that as CM, correct? Does everyone pay the minimum or do they pay far more than CSA recommends if they feel they can afford it? Or should I just pay it into the separate bank accounts of the children?

A lot of people will pay the minimum, especially if they are also contributing some housing equity or similar for a long time period. Single parents with child will also get various assistance from the state. It is also common to top that up a bit for above-average incidentals (school trips etc.).


But you can pay more if you like. Nothing stopping you paying the children, but it's not normally sensible to do anything more than pocket money - anything else should be going into savings, or to the parent with child if they are responsible with the money and spend it on the kids. Or direct gifts like paying private school fees, buying sports equipment etc.


The amount you need to pay under CSA rules is pretty mechanistic, you won't even need to call them to find out.

---

A general comment - it is good you are attempting to settle this via mediation.


But I can already see several pressure points here that make me fear that this still has the potential to go wrong, as you are working on different assumptions for a few key matters:


1) Who owns what. You think 50/50. She thinks what is in her name. In reality, given you are not married, neither is true.
50/50 is more of an aspiration of fairness than anything else. What is in your name would be correct, except that you have clearly built up a beneficial interest in the main house over time, and you also have to lay any child-related agreements over the top of it.


2) Current vs. dated values for the house. She is just trying to squeeze something from you here. It could be greed. It could stem from her view that the house it just hers, as she is on the title. It could be a fear that you might force her out to sell. It will be crucial to understand the underlying reason before you address this question itself, as it's a symptom of a bigger underlying dispute.


Doing things like putting a charge on the house are important, hopefully it won't be seen as an aggressive act. While it's just her name on the property she could, theoretically, liquidate the assets and run off to Rio (metaphorically-speaking)

FBaby

Your situation is very complicated and I think you will find that individuals, as much as professionals will have very different views as to what is a fair share.

When you say you are paying the mortgage, are you saying that you are paying the full mortgage (and she is paying nothing) or your share? Is this still interest only? And how is this paid? Directly to the mortgage company or to her and it is you saying that it is for the mortgage?

If the latter, you are not in a good position as indeed, unless it is made clear in writing, she can say that this is only maintenance (even if you pay more than what csa say you should because that amount is the minimum you should pay, you could pay more than this and many fathers do), and therefore you are paying nothing towards the mortgage. In this instance, she could justify that indeed, the share of the equity should be considered at the time you left and stopped paying the mortgage.

The first question to ask is whether she agrees that everything should be separated 50/50, because from what you say, and her claiming that what's in her name is hers and vice versa, it is not the case. Therefore are you prepared to consider taking less than 50% of the assets and if so, how low will you go? If you agree a percentage, you can there work backwards as you what you get and what she gets that accounts to that percentage.

If you won't agree on the percentage share, I am not too sure how you can move forward without going through the legal route and that will be quite a minefield!

Annisele

Hard_food_for_midas wrote: »

Her career (currently) is not hampered by children.

That surprises me. It sounds like having the children makes it much more difficult for her to take a job that includes travelling, or that has unpredictable hours. (She might not actually want such a job - but it doesn't look like she's even in a position to consider one).

Plus, the fact you say her career isn't currently hampered by children suggests that that hasn't always been true. Purely from a fairness perspective (and not at all from a legal one) - does that mean your pension pot is bigger than hers? If you were getting divorced, both of your pensions would be taken into account in the settlement. The pension sharing rules don't apply to cohabiting couples, but she might feel that taking more of the equity is a fair exchange for having less of a pension pot.

WillowCat

Hard_food_for_midas wrote: »

My partner and I (we never married)


1) She thinks what’s in her name is hers and what’s in my name is mine. But,
the equity in the house is double what I have in the flat. So, I will be registering my interest in the property (see below)

The advice I need now is this:

1) I want to claim a right to a share in the family home. I need help completing this simple form HR1, https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/490269/HR1.pdf

As you were never married (nor in a civil partnership I assume!) you cannot issue a home rights notice.

Your ex partner is correct that what is in her name is hers, and what is in your name is yours, however you may have built up a beneficial interest in her property which is not reflected in the legal title.

If you cannot come to an agreement, with or without mediation, the only option available is court - under the Trusts of Land and Appointment of Trustees Act 1996 (ToLATA). You must take legal advice before embarking on this route as it is typically very costly, and the loser will pay the winners costs (unlike matrimonial law where it is normal for each to pay their own).

There is some information here that may be of use:

http://www.familylaw.co.uk/news_and_comment/recurring-misconceptions-in-tolata-cases#.VxZeMFQrLIU

Hard_food_for_midas

warby68 wrote: »

Were your 3 flats and her house equity broadly equal in value at some stage?

Too difficult to look back over 17 years. Not sure it's relevant...?

What happened to the money from the 2 sold flats?

Absorbed over 17 years in keeping and maintaining all properties.

Why do you want to split your assets equally but not your debts?

Happy to do everything equally.

Why have you always kept 'his and hers' assets?

Learned from our parents mistakes. Just the way we both are. Even if we married, I'm sure we would have done. We had a joint account for a while...but only for certain things...

Not meaning to pry as such but suspect whatever thought processes you had together in the past might be influencing her view now so that if you agreed good reasons for the asset split and structure in the past, why is it suddenly unfair now?

I know. I get that. Thanks.

Not sure what is legally fair but get the feeling she may have a different take on things and reasons for that also.

Absolutely!