KENT RELIANCE - not reliable enough

AbbieCadabra

jimjames wrote: »

Do you really mean I can't just ask anyone to certify my documents? That's outrageous!

i thought this was the OP that had posted again, so i gave a sensible answer!

Archi_Bald wrote: »

Blimey. We should be allowed to pick who we want to certify our documents.

forgive my sense of humour bypass, just re-read the post i'd replied to earlier & the light dawned this time!

i'm sure the OP has the gist now, not any man & his dog can certify, would be money laundering heaven!

bowlhead99

adindas wrote: »

It is not like the excessive procedures imposed by AA credit cards, Post offices, Principality BS, where certification can only be done by a handful of professionals such as doctors, Bank officials, lawyers

The Principality one isn't too bad. It's basically the same list as KR that you bolded, except in common with many other financial services businesses these days, the white list doesn't explicitly include teachers, doctors or ministers.

It fits in with standard practice in jurisdictions that have modern anti-money laundering regimes. For example, if I want to open up a bank account or subscribe to an investment fund in the Cayman Islands, the local guidance for financial services businesses say that a suitable certifier would include all those standard groups of people that the Principality accept, and that to clarify, "such persons are expected to adhere to ethical and or professional standards and exercise his or her profession or vocation in a jurisdiction that has an effective money laundering regime".

Some other jurisdictions like the UK do not specify the "person type" by statute and allow the banks to take their own "risk based approach". Still, if you were trying to build a scalable international business, like many financial services firms do, you'd probably like a common approach that works in as many parts of the world as possible.

While it might be that your neighbour is (e.g.) a respectable part-time primary school teacher, and is hopefully "ethical", they are not likely to be particularly well trained to review or certify legal contracts or other documentation. Some banks allow it, since, hey, how hard can it be to check something is a true copy of a document. Others want to be able to know that it was a licensed professional that did it. Policies vary from place to place. The ones with "tougher" standards are probably happy with the number of customers they get, and the risks it exposes them to, otherwise they'd change their policies.

namecheck

colsten wrote: »

I have been a very happy Kent Reliance / KRBS customer for many years, not for an ISA but for their Regular Savings account. My only niggle about them is that the Regular Saver is a Branch only account and I rarely visit a town with a KRBS Branch.

I've had no problems with Kent Reliance, either.

However, I do share the niggle about their accounts which need to be opened - and closed - at a branch. This tends to be quite time-consuming, on their part, and can be highly inconvenient if it means a trek to one of their few branches.

adindas

bowlhead99 wrote: »

The Principality one isn't too bad. It's basically the same list as KR that you bolded, except in common with many other financial services businesses these days, the white list doesn't explicitly include teachers, doctors or ministers.

Unfortunately not.
http://www.principality.co.uk/privacy-and-security/your-information

" Copy documents will only be accepted if they are officially certified by a solicitor, a registered accountant, a bank official or an individual regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and Prudential Regulation Authority"

Also I have dealt with them in the past, so could tell my personal experience. Needless to say after been asked such request, I chucked the letter up and binned it.

bowlhead99 wrote: »

Some other jurisdictions like the UK do not specify the "person type" by statute and allow the banks to take their own "risk based approach".

Not some but majority will ask the same certification imposed by the UK governmental body, such as UK passport.

bowlhead99 wrote: »

While it might be that your neighbour is (e.g.) a respectable part-time primary school teacher, and is hopefully "ethical", they are not likely to be particularly well trained to review or certify legal contracts or other documentation.

For proof of addressees and ID verification

“I certify that this is a true copy of the original document which I have witnessed”

They do not need a special training, all they need is eye, hand and ethical which adhere to their professionalism.

Keep in mind these professionals are also used by other organisation dealing with ultimate security, dealing with terrorism. such as Home Office, UK passport.

adindas

namecheck wrote: »

I've had no problems with Kent Reliance, either.

However, I do share the niggle about their accounts which need to be opened - and closed - at a branch. This tends to be quite time-consuming, on their part, and can be highly inconvenient if it means a trek to one of their few branches.

It is not uncommon a BS have Branch operated products. They are reasonable number of other Building Societies have branch only products as well.

It might be because they just want to limit the product to local people.

namecheck

adindas wrote: »

It is not uncommon a BS have Branch operated products. They are reasonable number of other Building Societies have branch only products as well.

It might be because they just want to limit the product to local people.

Well yes, I agree with you.

However, the Kent Reliance Regular Saver is not restricted to existing account holders/people within certain postcodes or areas etc. And it's quite possible to live in Kent and not be within easy reach of a branch.

Plus, even if you are "local", you are still likely to have to spend quite a while in their office while someone does a lot of form-filling behind the desk/counter.

bowlhead99

adindas wrote: »

Unfortunately not.
http://www.principality.co.uk/privacy-and-security/your-information

" Copy documents will only be accepted if they are officially certified by a solicitor, a registered accountant, a bank official or an individual regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and Prudential Regulation Authority"

So, like I said, "It's basically the same list as KR that you bolded, except in common with many other financial services businesses these days, the white list doesn't explicitly include teachers, doctors or ministers."

Also I have dealt with them in the past, so could tell my personal experience. Needless to say after been asked such request, I chucked the letter up and binned it.

Yes, as I described to the OP, this is known as the 'cutting off your nose to spite your face' technique.

Not some but majority will ask the same certification imposed by the UK governmental body, such as UK passport.

Be grateful that banks do NOT typically impose the same high standards of documentation as the UK passport application. Getting a photocopy of your utility bill certified by a sub-postmaster might work for Kent Reliance, but UK passport applications or something for the home office generally don't allow you to copy documents and send them in at all. They deal with original documents only.

So, if I want to support an application for a passport with my birth certificate or marriage certificate as a proof of identity or name, I *can't* just get my teacher neighbour to certify a photocopy of it for me. I can go to the registry of births, marriages and deaths (general register office) and pay a tenner for an official copy to use for my application, or I can send them the original.

There is a minor dispensation in a case where the original document is no good to them anyway because it's in a foreign language. In that case only, you can provide a certified copy which, unlike a situation where the certifier is saying it's a copy of the original, it instead includes the details of the person who certifies it as a true and accurate translation of the original. For that purpose you wouldn't be using someone who happened to be a doctor or a teacher, but someone who was recognisably fluent in the language.

They do not need a special training, all they need is eye, hand and ethical which adhere to their professionalism.

Keep in mind these professionals are also used by other organisation dealing with ultimate security, dealing with terrorism. such as Home Office, UK passport.

As mentioned, the UK passport application requires originals - they do not want copies, even certified copies.

https://www.gov.uk/apply-first-adult-passport/photos-and-documents-you-must-send
4. Photos and documents you must send

You must send original documents. Photocopies aren’t accepted.

Official copies of certificates (eg birth certificate) are accepted.

Certified copies are only accepted if they’re a certified translation of documents that aren’t in English or Welsh.

Similarly for a driving licence application

https://www.gov.uk/id-for-driving-licence
You must send the original document with your driving licence application.

You can’t use:

- photocopies or laminated certificates
- certified copies - including those certified by the Post Office document certification service

adindas

Here is the rule for certifying document such as proof of address, ID from UK government. This is also what have been used by other banks apart from BOI, Post office, AA, Pricipality BS which only restricted to a handful of professionals. How many people are going to pay £8 per PAGE just to open a saving account with a very tiny gain in interest. Not to mention the time to travel to solicitors, lawyers. Asking bank official from another
banks is a silly idea, Whose bank is going to do that. It is the same thing with saying helping their competitors.

https://www.gov.uk/certifying-a-document

Certifying a document
Certify a document as a true copy of the original by getting it signed and dated by a professional person, like a solicitor.
When you apply for something like a bank account or mortgage, you may be asked to provide documents that are certified as true copies of the original.

Copies of documents that can be certified include:

Who can certify a document
To certify documents, ask a professional person or someone well-respected in your community (‘of good standing’) like a:

bank or building society official
councillor
minister of religion
dentist
chartered accountant
solicitor or notary
teacher or lecturer
The person you ask shouldn’t be:

related to you
living at the same address
in a relationship with you
Check with the organisation that needs the certified copy - they may have specific rules for who can certify a document.

How to certify a document
Take the photocopied document and the original and ask the person to certify the copy by:

writing ‘Certified to be a true copy of the original seen by me’ on the document
signing and dating it
printing their name under the signature
adding their occupation, address and telephone number
The person certifying the document may charge you a fee.

bowlhead99 wrote: »

So, like I said, "It's basically the same list as KR that you bolded, except in common with many other financial services businesses these days, the white list doesn't explicitly include teachers, doctors or ministers."
Yes, as I described to the OP, this is known as the 'cutting off your nose to spite your face' technique.

Be grateful that banks do NOT typically impose the same high standards of documentation as the UK passport application. Getting a photocopy of your utility bill certified by a sub-postmaster might work for Kent Reliance, but UK passport applications or something for the home office generally don't allow you to copy documents and send them in at all. They deal with original documents only.

So, if I want to support an application for a passport with my birth certificate or marriage certificate as a proof of identity or name, I *can't* just get my teacher neighbour to certify a photocopy of it for me. I can go to the registry of births, marriages and deaths (general register office) and pay a tenner for an official copy to use for my application, or I can send them the original.

There is a minor dispensation in a case where the original document is no good to them anyway because it's in a foreign language. In that case only, you can provide a certified copy which, unlike a situation where the certifier is saying it's a copy of the original, it instead includes the details of the person who certifies it as a true and accurate translation of the original. For that purpose you wouldn't be using someone who happened to be a doctor or a teacher, but someone who was recognisably fluent in the language.


As mentioned, the UK passport application requires originals - they do not want copies, even certified copies. Similarly for a driving licence application

eskbanker

The key part of all that quote is this:

adindas wrote: »

Check with the organisation that needs the certified copy - they may have specific rules for who can certify a document.

In other words, the government list has no real significance or relevance - it's not used for their own purposes (given their requirements for originals as opposed to certified copies) and they explicitly recognise that other bodies may apply different rules, so it has no real standing as a notional standard and certainly isn't a 'rule'....

colsten

Reality check time.

The vast majority of people pass the identity checks based on their data on the electoral roll and their credit history.

Those few that have to supply additional proof of ID might have to go through additional checks, and they will no doubt individually know why they have to go through those checks.