Anyone know of a kitchen manufacturer /supplier that uses

donmaico

high density chipboard rather than the standard low or medium density chipboard for their cabinets?I find it rather frustrating that none of the main suppliers seem to specify HDC and yet it must be much the better product to use int terms of durability and actually hanging on to any screws.

I bought my Benchmarx kitchen 5 years ago and i already have had a door fall off due to an inadequately short screw which I then replaced with a longer one . I also had two Blum hinges come apart on a corner unit which I struggled to reassemble.To my mind that is just pants

donmaico

a future option might be a painted solid pine one as supplied by Pineland but I would be concerned about the possibility of the wood warping .Particle board makes more sense but to my mind only does so if the boards used are of the densest varieties and the screws do the job they are meant to .So far none of the major manufacturers fill me with any confidence .My next kitchen must last me 20 years and more without niggly issues

Rain_Shadow

I'm just having a Beeck kitchen installed. The quality seems very good.

donmaico

Rain_Shadow wrote: »

I'm just having a Beeck kitchen installed. The quality seems very good.

German ,looks nice but they dont seem to specify what kind material they use in cabinet construction

leveller2911

donmaico wrote: »

a future option might be a painted solid pine one as supplied by Pineland but I would be concerned about the possibility of the wood warping .Particle board makes more sense but to my mind only does so if the boards used are of the densest varieties and the screws do the job they are meant to .So far none of the major manufacturers fill me with any confidence .My next kitchen must last me 20 years and more without niggly issues

Quite rightly too...

The pine they use is whitewood pine which is very, very soft ,in fact you can scratch it with your finger nails. Its not stable and does twist ,warp and cup.They use the dregs of the tree and I will guarantee there will be "pith" in the panels. The pith is the very centre of the tree, the core and its like cork its that soft.

There is only 1 reason why they use pine and that is cost, Its very cheap.



If you are looking for solid timber carcases then the only viable option is "Tulipwood". You can buy tulipwood panels in the same way you can buy the cheap whitewood ones. Its far more stable and its often used in interior Joinery. Its excellent around heat sources such as AGA cookers,radiators etc.


I would also suggest Melamine faced MDF which is available in dozens and dozens of colours and finishes. It can be edge banded with 3mm ABS plastic edging which is very hard-wearing. Its superior to any Chipboard

You may struggle to find a volume producer who uses MFMDF. Just to add German kitchens which are suppose to be far superior to UK kitchens use chipboard when they could if they wanted use MFMDF. The reason they don't is because it costs about 15% more than chipboard. Which is ridiculous when you consider a 10 foot x 5 foot sheet of MFMDF costs no more than £45-00 and you can make at least 3-4 carcases from one sheet.

German kitchens use the same hinges and drawer runners as the likes of Howdens and Wickes. The best hinges and runners imo are made by GRASS,then Blum followed by Hettich (which I'm not impressed with). Please do not fall for the sales pitch from so called kitchen Guru's who claim German kitchens are far superior quality.The fact is they aren't but they are more flexible with their sizes.


I've seen cheap bog standard kitchens from the likes of Howdens and B&Q last 25yrs so don't assume that money buys longevity.

ryder72

leveller2911 - what makes MFMDF better than MFC? Its heavier but that doesnt make it better?

Some German manufacturers use plastic lugs pressure fitted into carcases. When hinges are screwed into these the lugs deform and give secure fixing. I have never seen a hinge screw come loose in any of the kitchens we have supplied. I dont know if English manufactuerers use these but it sounds like they dont.

The particular brand of kitchens we use are based on 18mm 3-core high density particle board (chipboard) also edged with 2.6mm ABS edging. I dont know if all German manufacturers use this grade of chipboard but 16mm is the norm rather than 18mm.

donmaico

leveller2911 wrote: »

Quite rightly too...

The pine they use is whitewood pine which is very, very soft ,in fact you can scratch it with your finger nails. Its not stable and does twist ,warp and cup.They use the dregs of the tree and I will guarantee there will be "pith" in the panels. The pith is the very centre of the tree, the core and its like cork its that soft.

There is only 1 reason why they use pine and that is cost, Its very cheap.



If you are looking for solid timber carcases then the only viable option is "Tulipwood". You can buy tulipwood panels in the same way you can buy the cheap whitewood ones. Its far more stable and its often used in interior Joinery. Its excellent around heat sources such as AGA cookers,radiators etc.


I would also suggest Melamine faced MDF which is available in dozens and dozens of colours and finishes. It can be edge banded with 3mm ABS plastic edging which is very hard-wearing. Its superior to any Chipboard

You may struggle to find a volume producer who uses MFMDF. Just to add German kitchens which are suppose to be far superior to UK kitchens use chipboard when they could if they wanted use MFMDF. The reason they don't is because it costs about 15% more than chipboard. Which is ridiculous when you consider a 10 foot x 5 foot sheet of MFMDF costs no more than £45-00 and you can make at least 3-4 carcases from one sheet.

German kitchens use the same hinges and drawer runners as the likes of Howdens and Wickes. The best hinges and runners imo are made by GRASS,then Blum followed by Hettich (which I'm not impressed with). Please do not fall for the sales pitch from so called kitchen Guru's who claim German kitchens are far superior quality.The fact is they aren't but they are more flexible with their sizes.


I've seen cheap bog standard kitchens from the likes of Howdens and B&Q last 25yrs so don't assume that money buys longevity.

Tulip wood would appear to be a good solid wood alternative although I read somewhere that it tends to dent rather easily .That in itself would not be a major issue for me as I am inclined to think it would add some character just as they would some old bit of pine kitchen furniture.
MFMDF would seem the best alternative and yet some people decry its use and as you imply non of the major volume producers seem to use it for cabinet construction,which is baffling to me .No one as yet has given me a sound reason enough reason for not using it.
I undesrand you dislike chipboard of any sort and i quote you "Personally I don't like any form of chipboard mainly due to the blunting of tooling during manufacturing and installation", but it is the main product used so surely manufacturers of the better cabinets would use MFHDC rather than MFMDC. What i find frustrating is that none of them specify its use.Would i be right in assuming 16mm MFHDC would be better than 18mm MFMDC? Would that board not be more load bearing provided long enough screws were used to attach the doors with?

as one can see from this link melamine faced high density chipboard is perfectly usable products for making tough furniture .The question is why is it mot used more widely for kitchen cabinets? http://www.gresswell.co.uk/office-cupboards-and-storage.html

leveller2911

ryder72 wrote: »

leveller2911 - what makes MFMDF better than MFC? Its heavier but that doesnt make it better?

The simple answer ryder is MFC contains voids between the timber chippings whereas MDF is a solid material and you don't get a superior finish with MDF with the melamine layers . Voids/air has no strength and if you look at how much actual material and glue there is in MFC probably 30% of the sheet is air.

You get a an almost perfect finish on MFMDF but you don't on MFC, If you across a sheet of MFC its like a ploughed field compared to MFMDF. As you say,MDF is heavier but I don't see that as a problem so long as the unit feet are correctly fitted and give good support. At the end of the day a carcase/unit has no moving parts ,it just sits there for years..

I can never understand why companies would quibble about spending an extra £5-00 on materials for each unit when the cost of a kitchen is £1,000s, make no sense at all.

Some German manufacturers use plastic lugs pressure fitted into carcases. When hinges are screwed into these the lugs deform and give secure fixing. I have never seen a hinge screw come loose in any of the kitchens we have supplied. I don't know if English manufactuerers use these but it sounds like they don't.

There are some really innovative fixings available for hinges and I like to try out much of the new stuff . Some of the carcase mounting plates have 2 fixings which is never enough imo and some have 4 (cruciform) which is better and even the choice of fixings screws can make a difference.

I recently ordered the wrong drawer runners for some units and they were a chinese copy of the Blum Bluemotion runners and they were awful things and were sent back the next day so there are plenty of cheap Chinese copies on the market from genuine suppliers so I'm shocked they are selling them.They didn't market them as Blum but they were on the same page which didn't help..:D

That said my own kitchen,which I'm replacing later this year was a Howdens 600 and is 23yrs old and perfectly serviceable as its been looked after.

The particular brand of kitchens we use are based on 18mm 3-core high density particle board (chipboard) also edged with 2.6mm ABS edging. I dont know if all German manufacturers use this grade of chipboard but 16mm is the norm rather than 18mm.

I've seen a few German kitchens with 16mm chipboard used and I wasn't impressed.They flex very badly and the edgings were the same as Howdens (0.8mm paper thin melamine). 18mm never gives an problems with flexing and ABS edgings are excellent for putting up with knocks. Using 16mm is purely down to price and if any company is scrimping on the carcase material you have to ask yourself what else are the scrimping on.

leveller2911

donmaico wrote: »

Tulip wood would appear to be a good solid wood alternative although I read somewhere that it tends to dent rather easily .That in itself would not be a major issue for me as I am inclined to think it would add some character just as they would some old bit of pine kitchen furniture.

Tulipwood is harder than white-wood and if its spray finished and has a final layer of hardwaring lacquer its fine but it is softer than Beech,Ash etc.

Personally I'm not a fan of any solid timber carcases (although I have made them for clients under protest) but do make MFMDF carcases and then tulipwood or Beech face frames and doors and they have held up well over the years.Beech is a good material for doors and face frames as its very hard indeed ,not that expensive and takes a paint finish quite well.

MFMDF would seem the best alternative and yet some people decry its use and as you imply non of the major volume producers seem to use it for cabinet construction,which is baffling to me .No one as yet has given me a sound reason enough reason for not using it.

There is no reason other than cost why volume companies don't use MFMDF. It cost about £5-00 extra per unit and as I mentioned before MFMDF has a superior surface finish and is a solid material,MFC is full of voids and air holds no strength.

What i find frustrating is that none of them specify its use.Would i be right in assuming 16mm MFHDC would be better than 18mm MFMDC? Would that board not be more load bearing provided long enough screws were used to attach the doors with?

16mm MFHDC will flex more than 18mm MFMDF. Its all down to keeping costs to a minimum and profits to the max which is the way many businesses work.

My whole beef with the kitchen industry is how some salesmen give the impression that their product is superior but when you look at the facts it isn't and its all down to marketing to show you why you need to buy a certain kitchen but I can assure you that the materials used in German kitchens are of no better quality wise than the UK ones.Its a case of the emperor's new clothes and the claims are just sales pitch.

German kitchens are like UK ones in that some are basic quality and that's the rub, they are as good as UK ones and as bad as UK ones. If they were far superior as claimed then they wouldn't be constructed from the same materials as UK kitchens ......

They do tend to be more flexible and as mentioned by ryder etc some of their handleless models are very good but that's just a door on a standard carcase and many people don't want a handleless kitchen.


as one can see from this link melamine faced high density chipboard is perfectly usable products for making tough furniture .The question is why is it mot used more widely for kitchen cabinets? http://www.gresswell.co.uk/office-cupboards-and-storage.html[/QUOTE]

Its just a case of profit margins , they make about £2 more per unit sold but if you sell 1,000,000 units a year then it makes a difference to the bottom line profit.

ryder72

leveller2911 - I take your point that MFC is not as dense and a percentage of air in its construction. But it may be that the random direction that the chippings get compressed in actually give it more flexural strength. I am guessing but also thinking of OSB compared to mdf of the same size.

MFC is not at smooth but I dont see why that is a problem. Doors are only ever made from MFC when they are laminate so the underlying roughness never comes through. Painted doors are never MFC but MDF.

I think MDF has its place in certain applications but TBH I am struggling to see what makes it better than MFC. We use Chipboard to build our showroom walls and then use lining paper on it. We have tried MDF in the past and basically in 5 yers after changing displays thrice they were shot. MFC has served us better.

donmaico

leveller2911 wrote: »

Tulipwood is harder than white-wood and if its spray finished and has a final layer of hardwaring lacquer its fine but it is softer than Beech,Ash etc.

Personally I'm not a fan of any solid timber carcases (although I have made them for clients under protest) but do make MFMDF carcases and then tulipwood or Beech face frames and doors and they have held up well over the years.Beech is a good material for doors and face frames as its very hard indeed ,not that expensive and takes a paint finish quite well.







There is no reason other than cost why volume companies don't use MFMDF. It cost about £5-00 extra per unit and as I mentioned before MFMDF has a superior surface finish and is a solid material,MFC is full of voids and air holds no strength.





16mm MFHDC will flex more than 18mm MFMDF. Its all down to keeping costs to a minimum and profits to the max which is the way many businesses work.

My whole beef with the kitchen industry is how some salesmen give the impression that their product is superior but when you look at the facts it isn't and its all down to marketing to show you why you need to buy a certain kitchen but I can assure you that the materials used in German kitchens are of no better quality wise than the UK ones.Its a case of the emperor's new clothes and the claims are just sales pitch.

German kitchens are like UK ones in that some are basic quality and that's the rub, they are as good as UK ones and as bad as UK ones. If they were far superior as claimed then they wouldn't be constructed from the same materials as UK kitchens ......

They do tend to be more flexible and as mentioned by ryder etc some of their handleless models are very good but that's just a door on a standard carcase and many people don't want a handleless kitchen.


as one can see from this link melamine faced high density chipboard is perfectly usable products for making tough furniture .The question is why is it mot used more widely for kitchen cabinets? http://www.gresswell.co.uk/office-cupboards-and-storage.html

Its just a case of profit margins , they make about £2 more per unit sold but if you sell 1,000,000 units a year then it makes a difference to the bottom line profit.[/QUOTE]

I can accept that at lower end of the market where margins are low and volume is high, manufacturers will try and extract as much profit as possible and wont be too concerned about the true quality as long as they look "nice" in the showrooms.
Going further up the market then there seem little excuse for not using better materials such as MFMDF.Having said that products are consumer led and if buyers are either ignorant or are not bothered about thoughts of longevity, then neither will the manufacturer .
I know I am wearing my judgemental hat on but as far as consumer products in general are concerned , it drives me to to distraction knowing there are so many such products out there which are simply not durable enough, regardless of price. There are some,of course, that are as in Miele washing machine giving many more years service than Candy or Hotpoint, but it should always be the case.

I have done a Google search and so far I have found only one manufacturer , Manhattan Paula Rosa, that specifies 16mm MFHDC in its carcasses.I must assume the rest use standard 16 or 18mm MFC (aka Wheetabix), therefore I can only conclude that if i ever wanted proper MFMDF I would have to call on the services of a carpenter joiner who specialises in building kitchens.If I ever tire of the finish I would always just change the fronts and worktops , but the mot important part cabinets would remain solid on the wall for years to come.
By flexing do you mean HFC cabinets tend to bend ? I cant say i have ever seen that