Flights to Oz, and return

SW17

Just goes to show how much value, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

zagfles wrote: »

Yes might be worth paying a "little extra" for - last time I looked fast track security was something like £3 if you pay for it at the airport. Seat selection at time of booking is usually free in economy on most long haul flights. Lounge access - £15-20 or so?

Factor in better food, seat etc, and maybe worth £50-100 more to fly business. I think even I'd consider paying that for long haul. But typically, business class seems to be in the region of £1000 more :eek:

I really don't get why anyone pay that sort of amount extra to get a bit of trivial fluff which they could buy separately for a few £ if they really wanted it. Not that I'm complaining - I'm sure they're subsidising my travelling

Clearly it's worth only £50-100 to you, and that's fine, though I'd note that for long haul, only on the basis of the real estate occupied by the respective economy and business seats it accounts for signficantly more than that (whether it's "worth it" or necessary is of course more subjective). As an example, BA are cutting back on First because in a number of cases it doesn't justify the extra space it takes up.

The other things are of varying subjective value, though as dickydonkin notes, some of these may not be available for purchase or the cost may be higher than you indicate. Of course on BA, advance seat selection is not free unless you have status or buy a flexible fare, but they are a bit of an industry outlier in this (at least for long haul).

As for subsidising your travel, maybe, maybe not. Airline revenue management is more complex than that, each cabin has to pay its way in many airlines (and especially so on BA). Business class may be more profitable on some airlines, but you are just as likely to be "subsidised" by another economy passenger in a higher fare class as you are by passengers in higher cabins. If you have not bought the lowest fare class, you could be said to be subsidising others. Economy has more fare classes than any other cabin.

dickydonkin wrote: »

So you would refuse an upgrade then? You are way out with your perception of business class fares as well.

I don't think my recent flights have subsidised many passengers.

Bangkok in business (QR) - just under £900
Lihue (Hawaii) in business ----(BA/AA) just under £1,050
Boston in Business - (BA) just under £800

Some upcoming flights have been upgraded to First using Avios earned from previous flights (a benefit you failed to mention).

Of course true these fares are out there and easy to obtain when the relevant sale periods apply, though of course they are not available if your start point is the UK, so depend on you having the time and appetite for varying amounts of inconvenience and risk to start in Oslo, Dublin or wherever, and sometimes less direct routings, in return for the savings they offer. These savings can be substantial as you say, but on a like-for-like basis ex-UK, the differences are a lot greater, and probably even more than zagfles indicates. No airline would survive long selling those as a typical price (QR may have a different strategy, hard to say). Just all part of the revenue mix.

I would definitely agree that if you buy business class tickets on BA, using Avios to upgrade to First is one of the very best uses of them if you have plenty.

FWIW, I haven't flown economy long haul in more than a decade (and I've flown a lot of long haul in that time), and don't really intend to if I can avoid it, but that's just my view of value and I'm prepared to pay for it, to a point. So, we're all right...:)

fifeken

roseview wrote: »

. . . . . starting from home in Cornwall, so I guess flights will be from London, although Birmingham or Manchester could be possible.

Newquay to Gatwick (Flybe) is a protected route that does not attract any APD. If I understand correctly, you should not pay any APD even if your journey continues beyond Gatwick, so if you can get a routing all the way through you might stand to save a few quid by doing this.

Flybe and Emirates link up on this route but the problem might be getting it ticketed without the APD. A good travel agent might be required.

dickydonkin

Great clarification SW17

You have also correctly deducted that the prices I have quoted were not from the UK.

I use reward flight saver fares for my positioning flights (usually Dublin or Amsterdam) and use the destinations as an add on to my trip.

The Hawaii trip I highlighted above was at the time of booking, actually cheaper than economy for the same flights on the American Airlines website.

Again, I accept that even with the availability of rock bottom deals in business, many would still balk at the prices - I get that completely, but as you get a little older and you just want a little comfort when travelling, I find it is a price worth paying provided the price is reasonable.

zagfles

Gloomendoom wrote: »

We considered it last time we went to Oz but balked when we realised that we could go twice as often if we flew economy. We tend to split the journey anyway, so our bums and backs get a chance to recover.

Yes I don't like sitting down for ages, I usually have a stroll down to the galley and have a chat with the staff for a bit - good way to get travel tips as they're obviously well travelled!

zagfles

dickydonkin wrote: »

So you would refuse an upgrade then?

Eh? I wrote "...maybe worth £50-100 more to fly business. I think even I'd consider paying that for long haul..." so what makes you think I'd refuse an upgrade? I'd even be prepared to pay a reasonable amount for it! Just not the ridiculous amount it usually costs. I'm not going to pay £1000 for something I think is worth less than £100!

You are way out with your perception of business class fares as well.

I was going by the sort of amounts PW quoted, and those I've seen. Based on Aus/NZ distances - obviously it'll be less to closer destination.

I don't think my recent flights have subsidised many passengers.

Bangkok in business (QR) - just under £900
Lihue (Hawaii) in business ----(BA/AA) just under £1,050
Boston in Business - (BA) just under £800

Right - but you could probably get those for £500 less in economy - so about the same price differential given the difference in distance. Except maybe the Hawaii one which looks good value.

Some upcoming flights have been upgraded to First using Avios earned from previous flights (a benefit you failed to mention).

As for £15.00 lounge access, as one of my departure points is LHR T5, you cannot pay to access a BA lounge (nor fast track security) and for the recently opened Aspire, I understand it is £40 to gain access.

By virtue of the flights I take, I get lounge access anyway irrespective of what seat I fly in, however, having flew for many many years with the kids when flying in a premium cabin was cost prohibitive and certainly more expensive than it is today, now the kids have flown the nest, house is paid off and with more disposable income, the majority of my flights are in business or above - I have worked hard all of my life and the thoughts of being crammed into an economy cabin for numerous hours certainly does not appeal to me -although I accept others don't have an issue with it.

I've never had a problem with the seats on any long haul flight in economy. Ryanair/Easyjet, perhaps, but long haul economy has always been fine for me. Not something I'd pay a lot of money to improve anyway.

Many may use your argument about a car - a Ford Fiesta or a Rolls Royce both have the capability to get you to a destination - it is just that you will feel a little more comfortable and less fatigued if the trip is done in comfort.

Quite possibly - but people who buy Rollers probably don't post of MoneySavingExpert

If you are happy to fly in economy, that is fine and I accept that many don't see the value of paying extra to sit at the front - that is their choice.

Indeed and please carry on - I'm sure business and first travellers subsidise the flight

zagfles

SW17 wrote: »

Just goes to show how much value, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

Well yes - for stuff like quality of seat, food etc. But for stuff you can buy separately for a few £ you can directly compare different ways of buying them, as I did in my post yesterday.

Clearly it's worth only £50-100 to you, and that's fine, though I'd note that for long haul, only on the basis of the real estate occupied by the respective economy and business seats it accounts for signficantly more than that (whether it's "worth it" or necessary is of course more subjective). As an example, BA are cutting back on First because in a number of cases it doesn't justify the extra space it takes up.

Or maybe they aren't getting the bookings? Or perhaps the only ones are from those upgrading with Avios

The other things are of varying subjective value, though as dickydonkin notes, some of these may not be available for purchase or the cost may be higher than you indicate.

Yes but the direct purchase cost is usually trivial compared with the ticket price difference between classes. It just seems people are paying a vast amount for a package of benefits which would cost vastly less if puchased separately.

Though I take the point that some of the benefits may not be available for purchase direct. But when people are asked why the travel business, like DD they often mention ones that are!

Of course on BA, advance seat selection is not free unless you have status or buy a flexible fare, but they are a bit of an industry outlier in this (at least for long haul).

But like I said seat selection in economy is usually free anyway! So eg Singapore economy gets you better than BA business :money:

As for subsidising your travel, maybe, maybe not. Airline revenue management is more complex than that, each cabin has to pay its way in many airlines (and especially so on BA). Business class may be more profitable on some airlines, but you are just as likely to be "subsidised" by another economy passenger in a higher fare class as you are by passengers in higher cabins. If you have not bought the lowest fare class, you could be said to be subsidising others. Economy has more fare classes than any other cabin.

Right - but I'm sure the profit margin for business will be higher than for economy on average

Of course true these fares are out there and easy to obtain when the relevant sale periods apply, though of course they are not available if your start point is the UK, so depend on you having the time and appetite for varying amounts of inconvenience and risk to start in Oslo, Dublin or wherever, and sometimes less direct routings, in return for the savings they offer.

Yes seems a bit pointless to go on an out of the way route if you're after "comfort"...

These savings can be substantial as you say, but on a like-for-like basis ex-UK, the differences are a lot greater, and probably even more than zagfles indicates.

:eek:

No airline would survive long selling those as a typical price (QR may have a different strategy, hard to say). Just all part of the revenue mix.

I would definitely agree that if you buy business class tickets on BA, using Avios to upgrade to First is one of the very best uses of them if you have plenty.

FWIW, I haven't flown economy long haul in more than a decade (and I've flown a lot of long haul in that time), and don't really intend to if I can avoid it, but that's just my view of value and I'm prepared to pay for it, to a point. So, we're all right...:)

So am I. It's just our "point" is very different

dickydonkin

Rather than dissect my post in an attempt to justify your previous comments, I have to assume you believe SW17's comments are incorrect as well, despite giving a simple explanation on how revenue management works.

Again, I obviously value comfort more than you do and if you are content to be crammed into 29-32 inch seat pitch with the seat in front practically touching your nose for a long haul flight, then I commend you for that.

Our priorities obviously differ - happy travelling.

Apologies to the OP for the thread drift - hopefully it gets back on track.

zagfles

dickydonkin wrote: »

Rather than dissect my post in an attempt to justify your previous comments,

"dissect"? You mean reply to each point raised instead of just a rant ignoring half the post because you have no answer or you're annoyed because someone's disagreed with you?

I have to assume you believe SW17's comments are incorrect as well, despite giving a simple explanation on how revenue management works.

I've replied to the points he's raised as well. Or "dissected" his post if you prefer.

Again, I obviously value comfort more than you do and if you are content to be crammed into 29-32 inch seat pitch with the seat in front practically touching your nose for a long haul flight, then I commend you for that.

My nose isn't that long. Perhaps if yours is you should lie less Seriously though, I could comfortably watch a video in the seat back of the chair in front. Have you ever flown economy? Or do you really have Pinocchio's nose after he's been telling a few porkies?

Our priorities obviously differ - happy travelling.

You too. And chill out - this is a discussion group. In particular a money saving discussion group. We are going to discuss money saving, value for money etc.

SW17

zagfles wrote: »

I've replied to the points he's raised as well.

Well, you conveniently overlooked the point about the amount of aircraft real estate occupied by a biz class seat vs economy and its consequent impact on fares...I don't mind though, we're all selective when it suits us..;)

Hat tip to fifeken for actually still trying to help the OP with their question, we've got a little sidetracked.

Happy Easter all.

zagfles

SW17 wrote: »

Well, you conveniently overlooked the point about the amount of aircraft real estate occupied by a biz class seat vs economy and its consequent impact on fares...I don't mind though, we're all selective when it suits us..;)

Many apologies - but I thought I'd done enough "dissecting" already! Perhaps I'll reply to that point when every single point of mine has been replied to

Hat tip to fifeken for actually still trying to help the OP with their question, we've got a little sidetracked.

Well PW's and my initial post were also aimed at the OP. Do you have any advice for the OP?

Happy Easter all.

And to you! Planning our Easter getaway - we're flying EasyJet which I'm sure will send shudders down the spines of some