No seat in 2nd class train carriage

onomatopoeia99

Conditions of carriage, part 40:

Unless you have a seat reservation, the Train Companies do not guarantee to provide a seat
for your journey.

Part 39 is also worth a read (travelling in first class with a standard class ticket)

cookie365

Do you still have the penalty fare? Pay it in full before things get really expensive.

pogofish

Disgruntled_traveller wrote: »

Today, I bought a return train ticket to travel in Standard Class. The train was late and when I boarded the train the Standard Class carriage was full. However, there were several empty seats in the First Class carriage.

As I had paid for my rail fare and there were no seats available in the carriage that I had planned to sit in and knowing that there were no stations in between where additional potential First Class ticket holders might wish to board the train and sit in the empty First Class seats, I therefore followed common sense and sat in the First Class carriage seat.

When Economy class seats are full on flights, travellers are automatically upgraded to the next class where seats are available. The same should apply on trains.

In principle, I therefore feel that I was morally right to behave as I did.

The ticket officer who then boarded the train and checked tickets disagreed with my view....

I refused to pay the penalty fare on principle. As far as I was concerned, the seat was empty. It would not have been used by any potential First Class ticket holders as I was leaving the train at the next stop.

I would like to stand up for common sense and for my rights as a train traveller who had paid for a ticket during non-peak hours and therefore fully expected to have a seat. The seat was empty in the First Class carriage, so I made use of it knowing that no other First Class ticket holders would need the seat before I got off at the next stop.

Please can anyone let me know what my rights are? Shall I take this to court on behalf of UK train travellers and simply for the sake of common sense? I would like to seek justice... but am not sure what my chances of success are. Does anyone have any thoughts or similar previous experiences?

thanks so much.

A very disgruntled train traveller

Now there is an object lesson in the importance of reading the small print!

As noted above, a ticket only garuntees you a journey, not any kind or class of seat and if you want to argue the point, they will take a hefty sum off yu for the pleasure of your day in court.

zagfles

discat11 wrote: »

'As I had paid for my rail fare'

No, you hadn't if you were using 1st class without a valid ticket.
You had not paid the fare applicable, your fare was for standard class and you were not in this accommodation.

The ticket inspector didn't simply disagree with you or have a different view, the law has a different view.

A rail passenger who travels in First Class with a Second Class (now standard) ticket has not paid his fare. Gillingham & Walker (1881)

Yes, the law really is THAT old.

Many years ago (but after 1881!) I was in a long distance relationship and used to get the train most weekends, usually leaving Friday evening and standard class was invariably full.

I always used to sit in first class and never had a problem, a couple of times I was asked to move to second class because seats had become free, but never when there were no seats. I don't think the inspectors liked the aisles being clogged with people who couldn't find seats.

One inspector told me it was fine as long as I didn't let on to first class passengers that I didn't have a first class ticket! They wouldn't be happy if they find out an oik is lurking amongst them :rotfl:

I usually travelled straight from work so was in my suit so that probably disguised my lower class pleb status!

pogofish

Yup - In the past, I have been upped to first class, often for a token price or sometimes none at all but it was always a case of asking the guard/inspector first and waiting till they said that they thought first class had taken all it was going to take.

C_Mababejive

https://www.buytickets.virgintrains.co.uk/nationalcarriage.aspx

Just smile and give him/her a fake name and address,job done..

discat11

And hope you can't be traced from the original tickets payment codes/issue codes or any other reason authorised staff don't think the details you give are false of course or the 'job done' would involve a day in court and possibly considerably longer locked up.
Great advice mr petrocelli, what else do you do for a living?


Years ago the guard in charge of the train could make decisions regarding what tickets they allowed where - an 'attitude' test if you like.
However that isn't the case now, wasn't the law then or now and the OPs attitude would have failed in any case.

Owain_Moneysaver

discat11 wrote: »

Years ago the guard in charge of the train could make decisions regarding what tickets they allowed where - an 'attitude' test if you like.

They still can. A guard can permit a standard class ticketholder to travel in first class, or declassify first class (in which case first class ticketholders can obtain a partial refund).

yorkie2

discat11 wrote: »

Years ago the guard in charge of the train could make decisions regarding what tickets they allowed where - an 'attitude' test if you like.
However that isn't the case now, wasn't the law then or now and the OPs attitude would have failed in any case.

It is still the case now, however there is insufficient information in the opening post to say whether or not it is the case for the matter in question.

It's not possible to accurately comment on the case without knowing more information.

The OP may be in a strong position, or a weak position, but as I have no idea what train they got, I cannot possibly say!

discat11

TY Owain and Yorkie, although in my time on BR we had this absolute discretion I found towards the end of my career there was some distinct pressure to not allow discretion from those making decisions and had considered it now to be a thing of the past, I'm glad it is not.

The OPs attitude in his opening statement however leads me to believe if that was his attitude on that day he'd have certainly failed my attitude test in any case and the rule would be applied very strictly in such a case.

I have ignored the OP's point about air travel since it's irrelevant and the reason it is irrelevant is because air travel requires a seat to be used for starters for their safety case, the cases where the 'full' lower class seating is upgraded is neither an automatic process nor a very usual one IME since this is very uncommon in Europe and the operator can refuse boarding in any case if the flights accommodation is full.
Rail travel in the UK is a turn up & go service largely and therefore unless you wish to be turned away from the train every time you turn up on busier services and the seating is full you need to be careful what you wish for.

A lot of ticketing staff IME would welcome mandatory seat reservations since there would be fewer petty arguments about reserved seats and few would think it sensible to misbehave as they or their booking agent could easily be traced by the seat number.