No seat in 2nd class train carriage

Disgruntled_traveller_2

Today, I bought a return train ticket to travel in Standard Class. The train was late and when I boarded the train the Standard Class carriage was full. However, there were several empty seats in the First Class carriage.

As I had paid for my rail fare and there were no seats available in the carriage that I had planned to sit in and knowing that there were no stations in between where additional potential First Class ticket holders might wish to board the train and sit in the empty First Class seats, I therefore followed common sense and sat in the First Class carriage seat.

When Economy class seats are full on flights, travellers are automatically upgraded to the next class where seats are available. The same should apply on trains.

In principle, I therefore feel that I was morally right to behave as I did.

The ticket officer who then boarded the train and checked tickets disagreed with my view....

I refused to pay the penalty fare on principle. As far as I was concerned, the seat was empty. It would not have been used by any potential First Class ticket holders as I was leaving the train at the next stop.

I would like to stand up for common sense and for my rights as a train traveller who had paid for a ticket during non-peak hours and therefore fully expected to have a seat. The seat was empty in the First Class carriage, so I made use of it knowing that no other First Class ticket holders would need the seat before I got off at the next stop.

Please can anyone let me know what my rights are? Shall I take this to court on behalf of UK train travellers and simply for the sake of common sense? I would like to seek justice... but am not sure what my chances of success are. Does anyone have any thoughts or similar previous experiences?

thanks so much.

A very disgruntled train traveller

tomtontom

Common sense would be to seek permission to sit elsewhere or to stand.

Airlines are more and more choosing to bump customers to alternative flights rather than upgrading them - there is certainly no automatic right to upgrade in a case of overselling.

Justice would be for you to travel in the class for which you paid. You appear to be attempting to evade it.

s_b

You do of course realise that the very reason i buy first class tickets is to get away from the great unwashed like yourself,you clearly belong in the lower classes because you will smell of carbolic and sweaty socks
[Please know your place in future and i hope the fine was very large indeed

yours faithfully,a toff

Shrimply

s_b wrote: »

You do of course realise that the very reason i buy first class tickets is to get away from the great unwashed like yourself,you clearly belong in the lower classes because you will smell of carbolic and sweaty socks
[Please know your place in future and i hope the fine was very large indeed

yours faithfully,a toff

You do realise that in services where there is no first class service they allow any old ticket holder to dirty the first class seats. It's an appalling state of affairs and you know that no amount of cleaning gets rid of the odour of the lower classes :mad:

shaun_from_Africa

tomtontom wrote: »

Airlines are more and more choosing to bump customers to alternative flights rather than upgrading them - there is certainly no automatic right to upgrade in a case of overselling.

No right to an upgrade but they are still liable to pay compensation of between €250 and €600 depending on the length of the flight and also to cover accommodation costs if a replacement flight is offered which requires an overnight delay. (Providing of course that the flight is from an EU airport or into an EU airport and is flown by an EU registered carrier).


Quite often, these costs will exceed the cost of an upgrade.

tomtontom

shaun_from_Africa wrote: »

No right to an upgrade but they are still liable to pay compensation of between €250 and €600 depending on the length of the flight and also to cover accommodation costs if a replacement flight is offered which requires an overnight delay. (Providing of course that the flight is from an EU airport or into an EU airport and is flown by an EU registered carrier).


Quite often, these costs will exceed the cost of an upgrade.

Indeed, but no such legislation applies to rail travel so irrelevant here.

The reasons behind not upgrading are based on more than cost.

Quentin

Disgruntled_traveller wrote: »

Shall I take this to court ... but am not sure what my chances of success are.....

Do you mean to sue them?


No chance of success.

shaun_from_Africa

tomtontom wrote: »

Indeed, but no such legislation applies to rail travel so irrelevant here.

It's not irrelevant here as I was responding directly to a point that you brought to the thread.

discat11

'As I had paid for my rail fare'

No, you hadn't if you were using 1st class without a valid ticket.
You had not paid the fare applicable, your fare was for standard class and you were not in this accommodation.

The ticket inspector didn't simply disagree with you or have a different view, the law has a different view.

A rail passenger who travels in First Class with a Second Class (now standard) ticket has not paid his fare. Gillingham & Walker (1881)

Yes, the law really is THAT old.


Rail tickets allow passengers to travel from A-B, they do not confer the absolute right to a seat or standard of accommodation/provisions of service I am afraid, a seat wasn't guaranteed and nor could it be.

Reserve a seat if you wish to have a seat guaranteed in future.

You will not win and if you really did refuse to pay the penalty fare you will almost certainly receive a letter in the post fairly soon.

This may offer you an out of court settlement (which will be far more than the PF you have already refused), if you refuse that also, or if they decide not to offer you a OOC settlement) it'll be a court date with prosecution under the RoRa 1889.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/transport/transport/public-transport/if-you-are-taken-to-court-for-avoiding-paying-a-fare/if-you-re-taken-to-court-for-avoiding-paying-a-fare/

For the benefit of others -if offered a PF, pay it and complain or appeal AFTER you have done so, refusing to pay a PF in a PF area is simply asking to be prosecuted.
The Law is very old, bit it's been tested and is tested thousands of times per week across the country with very, very few unsuccessful prosecutions.

princeofpounds

You totally have a point about the sensible use of resources.


However, you have no legal grounds and will lose. So don't bother.

silverwhistle

You said the train was late? How late, maybe there'll be a refund to go towards the penalty fare!

It is deeply annoying when the train company don't fulfill their side of the bargain, but other than campaigning to change the law not sure there's much you can do.