The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

They are rather bizarre points to portray as 'balanced'.

The article lists the pros and cons. Clapton has cherry picked. Read yourself if interested.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

So from a Spanish perspective, it's better to give the UK a good deal to try to keep access to UK waters and also block Scottish accession. That would tick all their boxes. Would it not?

Given that the above is the only available option at the moment since Scotland is still in the UK, and will be for the foreseeable future. They would have a vested interest in putting down separatist movements.

The argument Leave.eu/Gove were trying to make up here were that Fishing among other things would default to Holyrood upon leaving as they aren't reserved matters. They are currently covered by EU law. Not sure many of us believed it though.

Gove of course, has rowed back considerably on this since the vote as we can see from the Hansard debate posted. As well as his assurances of a points based immigration system that Scotland would take control of over her own borders. ( fibs for votes ). I doubt all those Scottish fishermen who voted to Leave did so in any case, in order to give Spain a good deal

Spain would be faced with a stark choice of a Scotland in the EU with things as they are. Or risk Westminster going all out 'yer blocked' at any point in time, whenever they like in the future. They'll have to balance that with the Catalonia question which in essence now that England/Wales want to leave the EU. Is now nothing like the situation presented in 2014 where it was a 'separatist' movement wanting to leave a current EU member state and stay themselves. Is now the opposite way round with the EU member state itself leaving.

elantan

Does anyone ever pay attention to betting ?

I do, possibly due to being a matched better years ago but I've also noticed through out time it's generally a good indicator of the way things are going.

Since approx 2013 I've been following the odds on independence, they have generally been on the side of no, now I havnt checked them for a few weeks as I've been away on holiday and weekends away, working, back at uni etc, this morning I had a wee nosey.

It cheered me up .. have to admit I don't feel it on the streets just yet but maybe the bookies know something I don't

Have a wee nosey if it interests you

.string.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Your post above is fantasy from start of finish. The part where Scotland has already apparently applied to the EU and already been refused in particular. I have no idea where you are getting your info from, but it's dreadful. Is it from that blog you linked to ?

So, reverting to the old trick of deflecting from the issue, inventing something which was not said and running away from the facts.


So it seems, judging by your remarks, the SNP intend to brazen it out, claiming that entry into the EU is already in the bag, holding with the other lies.

But that is not true.

The situation is clear,

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36656980

Where it says, for example,

... acting Spanish prime minister Mr Rajoy said after a summit of EU leaders in Brussels that he wanted to be "very clear Scotland does not have the competence to negotiate with the European Union".
...
Mr Rajoy and Mr Hollande were in Brussels for a summit of European leaders to discuss the Brexit fallout
He added: "Spain opposes any negotiation by anyone other than the government of United Kingdom.
"I am extremely against it, the treaties are extremely against it and I believe everyone is extremely against it. If the United Kingdom leaves... Scotland leaves."

and

Meanwhile, Mr Hollande said: "The negotiations will be conducted with the United Kingdom, not with a part of the United ".

So that was after they were discussing the Brexit situation with other European Heads of State. They were considered remarks

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

The article lists the pros and cons. Clapton has cherry picked. Read yourself if interested.

ok so I 'cherry picked this that is clearly anti brexit and absurbly pro - Iscotland (it quotes member of Holyrood as evidence)

Another string to the SNP’s independence bow is that the EU plays a key role in the internationalist position now endorsed by Nicola Sturgeon. A post-Brexit UK has been portrayed as a ‘diminished Little Britain’, whereas Scotland, according to all parties in the Scottish Parliament, is instead to play an internationalist role: a force for good on the global stage, pro-immigration, pro-freedom of movement and pro-European.

so you cherry pick a quote that praises brexit for being internationist in outlook, as it wishes to trade and treat ALL countries equally and it doesn't do harm to developing countires via it agricultural discriminatory policies.

zagubov

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

So from a Spanish perspective, it's better to give the UK a good deal to try to keep access to UK waters and also block Scottish accession. That would tick all their boxes. Would it not?

It would also give the SNP ammunition for their "Holyrood's the parliament for Scotland but Westminster's the parliament against Scotland" argument.

New_World_Man

I am one of the undecided on the topic of an independent Scotland within the eu.

The eu appears to work on the principle that the wealthy members are net contributors to the Euro budget. The SNP argue that we are one of the wealthiest nations so by definition we will be paying in more than we take out. How much would the eu expect?

I think the UK pays 13 billion per annum (after rebate) so Scotland might be looking at 10% of that.

It may be a sound investment but I want to know what we would get in return.

.string.

New_World_Man wrote: »

I am one of the undecided on the topic of an independent Scotland within the eu.

UK would continueThe eu appears to work on the principle that the wealthy members are net contributors to the Euro budget. The SNP argue that we are one of the wealthiest nations so by definition we will be paying in more than we take out. How much would the eu expect?

I think the UK pays 13 billion per annum (after rebate) so Scotland might be looking at 10% of that.

It may be a sound investment but I want to know what we would get in return.

It is a moot point as to whether Scotland would be a net contributor, although the EU would almost certainly expect a balanced budget prior to accession.


Edit: on the specific point you raised, the EU works according to a budget where some countries give more than they get and others gain. There is nothing wrong in that since the net contributors assist the protestations to raise their economic level and thereby increase overall trade. It is hoped this will increase uniformity of prosperity across the EU. Whether that happens and in what timescale remains to be seen. The UK Brexit therefore takes a big chunk out of the excess cash and either the EU is going to have to cut back or increase subscriptions from member states. It also is a factor in the Brexit negotiations, the EU will want to (needs) to get money from the UK. It will be up to our negotiators to make the best of that leverage. A hard Brexit would severely damage the EU financially on top of the political damage already done.

A long delay can be expected. Joining immediately is impossible in my view. If the SNP tell otherwise, they are deceiving you.

Once a member:

Scotland would get a say in much of the regulations issued by the EU (to the extent proportional to its relative population
Scotland would have a veto, as do the other 27 countries, over high level decisions (common foreign policy, immigration policy, financial regulations, probably social welfare)
Trading with the EU would require more regulation to an extent depending on when joining the EU was achieved (after a period of non-membership after separation from the UK);
Trading with the UK would continue, assuming the English don't get really p***ed off but at a higher level of bureaucracy and cost than now
The currency will be Euro which will be very convenient for travel, less so for the Scottish Parliment being in control of economy; changing from a Scottish currency to the Euro would probably reduce the value of your savings due to currency devaluation but will increase the competitiveness of Scottish goods
Scotland will be absorbed into the EU Goverment as "ever closer union" continues inexorably and less decisions will be made in Scotland

Frankly, I would not want it. I was a 'Remainer', but that was in the context of the UK having a very clear opt out from being federated. That is no longer true unfortunately and Scotland would inherit nothing from the UK's opt outs and debate.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

New_World_Man wrote: »

I am one of the undecided on the topic of an independent Scotland within the eu.

The eu appears to work on the principle that the wealthy members are net contributors to the Euro budget. The SNP argue that we are one of the wealthiest nations so by definition we will be paying in more than we take out. How much would the eu expect?

I think the UK pays 13 billion per annum (after rebate) so Scotland might be looking at 10% of that.

It may be a sound investment but I want to know what we would get in return.

Since the SNP themselves cannot yet answer that or indeed give even an honest indication, this thread will probably be of no use in helping your decision.

Those pro-iScotland (in this thread at least) appear to vehemently espouse the party line whatever happens, and when that doesn't work they will begin (as .string has said a few posts back) "reverting to the old trick of deflecting from the issue, inventing something which was not said and running away from the facts. "
If THAT fails attempts will be made at coercion; look through the past dozen or so pages for examples.

Interestingly, despite a number of posts in this thread no one has asked whether I am pro- or anti- independence for Scotland.
It has been assumed that my anti-EU stance indicates the latter.
And therein lies a (or rather, another) major problem for the SNP.
One that has not (AFAIK) been discussed within this thread.
Many Scots may indeed want independence BUT either NOT with the SNP; NOT within the EU; or NOT with EITHER of those two options.

I wish you well in your search for information which will assist you in making your decision.

New_World_Man

I can see that "having a seat at the table" and a veto would be powerful tools in shaping the future. However I can't see what the Eu gets in return, although I imagine our lust for German cars may be an attraction for Germany.

When I read articles and follow discussions they tend to be based on the theory of independence (which I agree with) but as a taxpayer I, perhaps selfishly, want to know what it means in cold hard cash.

Now there is nothing wrong in paying more to get a better country but any challenges about costs appear to get swatted away and are never addressed in any meaningful way.