The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

mollycat

Shakethedisease wrote: »

This is called personalising the debate down to barbs against one person or a few people rather than actually discussing any relevant issues. It's low brow stuff and isn't interesting for everyone else to read. If you have a specific problem with myself, Leanne, elantan or anyone else you keep mentioning in your posts or talking to in some imagined and extremely patronising Scots dialect .. then do feel free to message me, or the relevant party and continue this privately.

It's also why so many threads on forums end up as slagging matches. When you want to discuss Scotland and any issues concerning Scotland, then please, feel free. If it's me and my posting style or whatever else you happen to think of me.. then just message me as it would be more appropriate to discuss it off the public boards.

Now, have you any thoughts on the Scottish Labour party at the present time ? Do you think they'll get rid of Kezia or split up with the main party ? Do you think regardless of your personal opinion that there will be another independence referendum within the next 2 years ? What do you think the impact on Scotland will be if there is no referendum yet there's a hard Brexit in both economic and political terms ?

Lots to talk about besides me and other posters. And not a hint of a fake Scottish accent needed in order to do so.

Spin it all you want, you personalised the debate by naming me directly in post 2186, (I realise this was an attempt to discredit my opinion and thoughts on the issues).

With regard to the words you edited into bold text, you do realise that the 2nd person pronoun also has a plural form, don't you?

Baldelectrician...thanks for the response.

I don't agree that Independance is the answer to having unwanted Tory governments or Trident; these issues will be resolved in time anyway, in or out of the UK.

mollycat

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

This has gotten out of hand quite quickly.

No Tricky, it got out of hand pages and pages ago.:(

I've just read the last 30 or so pages and the vitriol, spin and discrediting of alternative points of view is just as bad then as it is now.

At one point you were advised to "stop clutching your pearls"so tightly", and were chastised for beind "disappointing" in terms of "intelilgent debate".

The difficulty I suppose, in setting oneself up as the arbiter of such "intelligent debate" is that one must then meet those standards.

Discounting the posts I made using the "fake", Scottish accent, (inspired by a fellow posters use of less extreme form of same), for which I apologize for, I have been consistent throughout the thread.

I have promoted the idea that nationalism, has been a historically devisive and dangerous political route and that there is no reason why Scottish nationalism is different from the other forms.

Evidence the 100+ pages on this forum, the ongoing divisions in Scottish society and the experience of living in Scotland throughout the 2014 campaign.

I have not called anyone a racist on this board, although non-Scot's have indeed become aware of the unpleasant undertones which exist.
They have done this simply by following this thread and links provided; they have not actually had to live here to experience this.

The reality is that there is no less intolerance of others in Glasgow than there is in Cardiff, Ballymena, or Colchester. (Or Lyon, Hamburg, or Amsterdam if you want to push the point).

I have also consistently promoted the economic arguement, which has been won many times over.

I have expressed my bafflement at my fellow Scot's unwillingness to accept that we are heavily subsidised by rUK, and that people would walk away from rUK for reasons that are spurious and temporary at best, (see post #2491).

I do not think that persons on this thread really do wish to engage in "intelligent debate"; scorn is poured on alternative points of view, uncomfortable topics are sidelined, statistics are misused , and opinion is presented as hard fact.

The poster who has denigrated my contribution as "low brow", (quoting my fake scots posts, obviously to discredit), has ,a few post ago asked me amongst other things, what I thought of Kezia Dugdale!

I rest my case.

I'm trying to debate about how we aviod voting future generations into the economic wilderness of an independent Scotland; this thread appears to be more concerned with the minutiae.

My bad

Leanne1812

mollycat wrote: »

No Tricky, it got out of hand pages and pages ago.:(

I've just read the last 30 or so pages and the vitriol, spin and discrediting of alternative points of view is just as bad then as it is now.

At one point you were advised to "stop clutching your pearls"so tightly", and were chastised for beind "disappointing" in terms of "intelilgent debate".

The difficulty I suppose, in setting oneself up as the arbiter of such "intelligent debate" is that one must then meet those standards.

Discounting the posts I made using the "fake", Scottish accent, (inspired by a fellow posters use of less extreme form of same), for which I apologize for, I have been consistent throughout the thread.

I have promoted the idea that nationalism, has been a historically devisive and dangerous political route and that there is no reason why Scottish nationalism is different from the other forms.

Evidence the 100+ pages on this forum, the ongoing divisions in Scottish society and the experience of living in Scotland throughout the 2014 campaign.

I have not called anyone a racist on this board, although non-Scot's have indeed become aware of the unpleasant undertones which exist.
They have done this simply by following this thread and links provided; they have not actually had to live here to experience this.

The reality is that there is no less intolerance of others in Glasgow than there is in Cardiff, Ballymena, or Colchester. (Or Lyon, Hamburg, or Amsterdam if you want to push the point).

I have also consistently promoted the economic arguement, which has been won many times over.

I have expressed my bafflement at my fellow Scot's unwillingness to accept that we are heavily subsidised by rUK, and that people would walk away from rUK for reasons that are spurious and temporary at best, (see post #2491).

I do not think that persons on this thread really do wish to engage in "intelligent debate"; scorn is poured on alternative points of view, uncomfortable topics are sidelined, statistics are misused , and opinion is presented as hard fact.

The poster who has denigrated my contribution as "low brow", (quoting my fake scots posts, obviously to discredit), has ,a few post ago asked me amongst other things, what I thought of Kezia Dugdale!

I rest my case.

I'm trying to debate about how we aviod voting future generations into the economic wilderness of an independent Scotland; this thread appears to be more concerned with the minutiae.

My bad

Blow your own trumpet why don't you!

Mollycat, what you have shown, to me anyway, is that you are intolerant of other viewpoints. This is a debate page where people of differing opinions come to share. You don't seem to fully understand that. Come, share, engage by all means but don't throw a hissy fit and then play the 'poor me, all I ever tried to do was....' You lost control the other night when called out. It's that simple.

You tried to belittle me and others but all you achieved was to make yourself look silly and petty. I wouldn't have brought this up but you seem to want to keep it going so there's my tuppence.

Anyway moving on from that.

You mention intolerance to others in other cities & countries. It appears you are fixated that Scottish independence supporters have some sort of inbuilt intolerance to anyone not Scottish. What's your reasoning behind this? I've yet to see it on this thread, only criticism of Westminster and politicians, some media too but not citizens. If you find otherwise please point it out.

I think you'll find Shakes asking about Kezia was simply to get the thread back on some kind of track about Scottish issues.

mollycat

Leanne1812 wrote: »

You mention intolerance to others in other cities & countries. It appears you are fixated that Scottish independence supporters have some sort of inbuilt intolerance to anyone not Scottish. What's your reasoning behind this? I've yet to see it on this thread, only criticism of Westminster and politicians, some media too but not citizens. If you find otherwise please point it out.

Wrong, 100% wrong.

Other way round.

You guys can't grasp it can you?

Or is the misunderstanding deliberate

Part of the spin

I'm calling out the fact there is NO DIFFERENCE between people' of different nationalities, and that characteristics alluded to in this thread that Scot's are more amenable to immigration, (as an example) are not correct.

Go have a lovely Sunday now

Leanne1812

mollycat wrote: »

Wrong, 100% wrong.

Other way round.

You guys can't grasp it can you?

Or is the misunderstanding deliberate

Part of the spin

I'm calling out the fact there is NO DIFFERENCE between people' of different nationalities, and that characteristics alluded to in this thread that Scot's are more amenable to immigration, (as an example) are not correct.

Go have a lovely Sunday now

Ok, gotcha. My misunderstanding. No spin at all on my part. Please stop with the barbs, it adds nothing.

I'd agree with you there. We are all human beings. No one race/colour/creed is superior in anyway yet there are subtle references that infer Scots feel superior and this is why they seek independence. This is absolutely untrue. Ending a political union is ultimately what independence is.

mollycat

Leanne1812 wrote: »

play the 'poor me, all I ever tried to do was....' You lost control the other night when called out. It's that simple.

You tried to belittle me and others but all you achieved was to make yourself look silly and petty. I wouldn't have brought this up but you seem to want to keep it going so there's my tuppence.

What are you going on about; there's no "poor me", sentiment in the post you quoted.

I'm happy with my contribution to this thread, I apologised for the fake scottish accent because a few different posters called it offensive...fair enough.

BTW, in the spirit of your last post.....

Scottish politics....where do you want to start?:)

mollycat

Leanne1812 wrote: »

Ok, gotcha. My misunderstanding. No spin at all on my part. Please stop with the barbs, it adds nothing.

I'd agree with you there. We are all human beings. No one race/colour/creed is superior in anyway yet there are subtle references that infer Scots feel superior and this is why they seek independence. This is absolutely untrue. Ending a political union is ultimately what independence is.

Okay Leanne. Good to hear the first 6 sentences from you, but I do think that there is a prevailing sense in Scotland that we are a kinder, more tolerant people than,(say) rUK.

I agree it's not true and if that is what is driving Indy 2 that is sad.

We won't ever agree on the ending of the union bit, but I'm happy to end the barbs.

baldelectrician

mollycat wrote: »

I have promoted the idea that nationalism, has been a historically devisive and dangerous political route and that there is no reason why Scottish nationalism is different from the other forms.

I don't see it as nationalism- for me its all about control - here in Scotland, by a representative Scottish Government.
Remember that when independence happens the SNP are finished in their current state. Many people will leave the SNP and align to other parties - Labour (not the Scottish branch office, but an actual Scottish Labour party) will find a spine and some left of centre policies that arent 'SNP BAD'. Only then will people take them seriously.
Scotland will be run better by a Labour or SNP government here with all the powers the UK has at Westmonster now

I have also consistently promoted the economic arguement, which has been won many times over.
I have expressed my bafflement at my fellow Scot's unwillingness to accept that we are heavily subsidised by rUK, and that people would walk away from rUK for reasons that are spurious and temporary at best, (see post #2491).

I stongly disagree that we are heavily subsidised, my twopenneth ;
There are 5 areas revenue is allocated in the UK,

• Scotland
• England
• Wales
• Northern Ireland
• Other

Guess where almost of the off shore revenue is allocated (clue: NOT Scotland).

It's not about the oil (Scotlands GDP per person WITHOUT oil is 99% of the rUK figures).

Scotlands economy dropped less that £300m after the drop in oil price


When you go to a supermarket here (with a head office outside Scotland) the revenues are allocated outside Scotland, thus skewing the figures, this adversely allocates £4bn-£6bn per year.
Add to this our share of the UK debt interest (£4bn) plus our undespend on defence (£1.5bn) .
This is before you take into account the excise duty on exported whisky (over 80% is allocated outside Scotland as the container ships leave from Dover etc) then you have another £2bn


So a 'defecit' of £13 bn comes in at an evens status or a small surplus before we actually see the real books.


I reckon there will be more than a few pleasant surprises post indy when we actually find out where our money is going


I'm trying to debate about how we aviod voting future generations into the economic wilderness of an independent Scotland; this thread appears to be more concerned with the minutiae.

We prevent our future generations by voting to take control in Scotland- remember the UK has had it's spectacular failures

My bad

We prevent our future generations by voting to take control in Scotland- remember the UK has had it's spectacular failures

• According to the mainstream media Scotlands economy (using 'massaged GERS figures') is a basket case. Yet Westminster has been running us for 300 years +. A genuis once said that doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result is madness.
• Westminster was running the show when THEY failed to properly regulate the banks. They have not sorted the problem (bankers bonuses etc), yet we are to believe that Westminster can fix it despite them not doing so in 8 years.
• House of Lords - despite Labour policy to abolish it for > 100 years
• Iraq war
• Semi permanant Tory governments- Labour is set to lose 35+ seats in the changes thus making it nearly impossible for Labour to form a Westminster government (even if the SNP voted with Labour - remember EVEL)

.string.

A bit of retrospection:


1. I was rather shocked by the reaction to mollycat's post #2172 which I found a touching and anquished cry from someone who percieves her country being torn apart by events and arguments she sees as false.

Instead of addressing the concerns she expressed, the response was
"Wee sleekit timorous beastie" and the implication that the disgusting poster from UKIP was representative of the UK.

Later comments included the assertion that child abuse was at the heart of the UK establishment, and other distorted remarks unworthy of a response.

2. On the matter of racialism, xenophobia:
I don't call the people posting here on behalf of iScitland or Brexit, as being Racist simply because Racism is more about different genetic ethnicity. A matter of definition .

But I do charge both Brexit and Scottish Nationalists as having a large element of Xenophobia in their attitudes and argumentation. I think that based on the expressed attitudes behind such phrases as "Regain Control". Both sets of people accompany such slogans be claiming that the institutions of the respective Unions do not and cannot take decisions which take into proper account the interests of, respectively, the UK or Scotland. The argumentation always ignores the effect that engagement by UK or Scottish politicians in that process and demonises the EU / the UK in the process. Small wonder that the English feel insulted as, no doubt, do Europeans.

It's a xenophobic attitude, a recourse of fanaticism everywhere from Islamic State to football hooligans, and one I despise.

Now one could add all the fluffy stuff about not everyone in the Leave or Yes Campaigns being so-minded, but my concern is well founded I think and not actually controversial.

What is maybe more controversial is that I think that the SNP has institutionalised xenophobia (of the UK/British/English) in their policies.

mollycat

Well said .string.

I'm not contributing anymore.

Good luck in attempting to debate the issues.