Harder now for 1st time buyers?

ScorpiondeRooftrouser

Person_one wrote: »

...or retail workers, or care assistants, or cleaners, and many many other people who can never dream of reaching the same kind of salary as a teacher or a doctor.

I'm a nurse, my salary is well below the national average, and will probably never get very far above it. I have absolutely no idea how people like me can afford to exist at all in London and the SE, never mind buy a house!

Here in the NW, I can afford a good sized semi with a big garden and a drive in a nice area and my mortgage is easily manageable. If I wanted to work at a central London hospital I can only assume I'd have to share with several others in one of those illegal 'beds in sheds' you see on the news...

I agree completely re nurses, but I am not sure why people are saying "teachers and doctors" as though the salaries for both are similar. Teachers salaries are higher than nurses, but far closer to the latter than they are to doctors. Starting salary for a registered nurse is currently £21K outside London and roughly 25K, I think, in inner London, while starting salary for a qualified teacher is £22K outside London, £27K within. A salaried GP is on a minimum of £55K (although there is a lower paid training period in hospitals).

If doctors can't buy houses we really are in trouble.

Person_one

ScorpiondeRooftrouser wrote: »

I agree completely re nurses, but I am not sure why people are saying "teachers and doctors" as though the salaries for both are similar. Teachers salaries are higher than nurses, but far closer to the latter than they are to doctors. Starting salary for a registered nurse is currently £21K outside London and roughly 25K, I think, in inner London, while starting salary for a qualified teacher is £22K outside London, £27K within. A salaried GP is on a minimum of £55K (although there is a lower paid training period in hospitals).

If doctors can't buy houses we really are in trouble.

My point about salaries was more to do with the first few jobs I listed, care assistants, retail etc, people who are on less than 20K, or on NMW. Every city and town needs these people, but how on Earth can they afford to live in London to provide the investment bankers and the media bods with their coffee and their care homes for their grannies?

Junior doctors start out on not much more than nurses or teachers though, with lots of debt and professional costs. It takes many years for them to get the sorts of salaries people assume they earn.

littlegreenfrog_2

ScorpiondeRooftrouser wrote: »

I agree completely re nurses, but I am not sure why people are saying "teachers and doctors" as though the salaries for both are similar. Teachers salaries are higher than nurses, but far closer to the latter than they are to doctors. Starting salary for a registered nurse is currently £21K outside London and roughly 25K, I think, in inner London, while starting salary for a qualified teacher is £22K outside London, £27K within. A salaried GP is on a minimum of £55K (although there is a lower paid training period in hospitals).

If doctors can't buy houses we really are in trouble.

I wasn't suggesting the salaries for teachers and doctors are similar, just using them as two examples of very important workers which we need in every part of the country. Nurses are also a very good example, as are the other occupations Person_one mentioned.

That said, in the south east, it is not just people on lower incomes who can't buy houses. Doctors and even lawyers struggle. My two friends are both lawyers and between them their joint salary is enormous. But it still gets them next to nothing in London, and they can't move out of London and commute in because they are regularly in the office well into the wee small hours. Which kind of makes them wonder why on earth they are bothering.

Person_one wrote: »

My point about salaries was more to do with the first few jobs I listed, care assistants, retail etc, people who are on less than 20K, or on NMW. Every city and town needs these people, but how on Earth can they afford to live in London to provide the investment bankers and the media bods with their coffee and their care homes for their grannies?

Junior doctors start out on not much more than nurses or teachers though, with lots of debt and professional costs. It takes many years for them to get the sorts of salaries people assume they earn.

Yes, all of this. And you're right, despite what certain sections of the media would have us believe, junior doctors are not well off, especially considering all the extra professional costs they have and the other kinds of jobs people with their brains and education could be doing.

[Deleted User]

Person_one wrote: »

...or retail workers, or care assistants, or cleaners, and many many other people who can never dream of reaching the same kind of salary as a teacher or a doctor.

I'm a nurse, my salary is well below the national average, and will probably never get very far above it. I have absolutely no idea how people like me can afford to exist at all in London and the SE, never mind buy a house!

Here in the NW, I can afford a good sized semi with a big garden and a drive in a nice area and my mortgage is easily manageable. If I wanted to work at a central London hospital I can only assume I'd have to share with several others in one of those illegal 'beds in sheds' you see on the news...

Or do what my wife did and marry someone earning more and combine salaries!

Her friends at work tend to do a lot of bank and agency shifts to make up the pay; and you can get very good money working at stadiums and arenas. One of her friends has pushed her salary up to about £40k but she works a lot of hours for it.

Sadly, even a £40k salary isn't going to get you much at all. The only way is doubling up and moving out to the 'burbs. A lot of the staff in A&E live far outside of London and drive in. Anyone working at places like UCL or Barts must need their head examining!

Person_one

ringo_24601 wrote: »

Or do what my wife did and marry someone earning more and combine salaries!

Her friends at work tend to do a lot of bank and agency shifts to make up the pay; and you can get very good money working at stadiums and arenas. One of her friends has pushed her salary up to about £40k but she works a lot of hours for it.

Sadly, even a £40k salary isn't going to get you much at all. The only way is doubling up and moving out to the 'burbs. A lot of the staff in A&E live far outside of London and drive in. Anyone working at places like UCL or Barts must need their head examining!

What do the HCAs, the domestics and the porters do?

[Deleted User]

Person_one wrote: »

What do the HCAs, the domestics and the porters do?

I know some of the security staff live much more local to the hospital, and live in council accommodation. I'm sure there's plenty of people who rent and house-share too.

They just interviewed a load of people to become HCAs (Band 3s) and from what the missus said, most lived at home with parents.

ukcarper

Person_one wrote: »

My point about salaries was more to do with the first few jobs I listed, care assistants, retail etc, people who are on less than 20K, or on NMW. Every city and town needs these people, but how on Earth can they afford to live in London to provide the investment bankers and the media bods with their coffee and their care homes for their grannies?

Junior doctors start out on not much more than nurses or teachers though, with lots of debt and professional costs. It takes many years for them to get the sorts of salaries people assume they earn.

People earning low salaries have never been able to buy in London.

racing_blue

littlegreenfrog wrote: »

Get real. Not everyone can be an investment banker. What would London do without doctors and teachers? You think the landlords of those doctors and teachers living in London acquired those properties through "spade work"? No, most likely they were just in the right place at the right time.

The point is, there is no longer any real correlation between "spade work" and wealth. And that is precisely the problem.

But- why can't anyone be an investment banker, or at least aspire to a high income?

Why does housing being expensive mean London will have no doctors and teachers? Are there doctors and teachers in Monaco, Sydney, Zurich? Of course there are- they'll follow the money like all professionals. If you want a place with no doctors or teachers, Chad.

The spadework required is mostly cerebral- intelligent, thoughtful, creative solutions to the problem of scarce housing resource in 21st century global cities. If you think there is no correlation between intelligent industry and wealth, can you back that up?

Don't get me wrong- I understand frustration about not being able to afford some of the things our parents did. But their world was perhaps less colourful, less connected, less complex, less informed. And we are not in that world any more.

littlegreenfrog_2

racing_blue wrote: »

But- why can't anyone be an investment banker, or at least aspire to a high income?

Good question. How exactly do you imagine a society in which everyone is an investment banker will function?

racing_blue wrote: »

Why does housing being expensive mean London will have no doctors and teachers? Are there doctors and teachers in Monaco, Sydney, Zurich? Of course there are- they'll follow the money like all professionals. If you want a place with no doctors or teachers, Chad.

I'm pretty sure doctors and teachers earn a lot more money in those places. Can't see public sector workers in the UK getting a pay rise any time soon.

racing_blue wrote: »

The spadework required is mostly cerebral- intelligent, thoughtful, creative solutions to the problem of scarce housing resource in 21st century global cities. If you think there is no correlation between intelligent industry and wealth, can you back that up?

Because in some parts of the country (particularly London and the South East) we have got to a point where your salary is almost irrelevant unless you are an extremely high earner indeed. I'm not alone in this. I have friends who are very high earners indeed (higher than me) who are watching the dream of property ownership race away from them because they cannot save a deposit fast enough whilst paying their current rent. Instead, they see others who earn a lot less get on the property ladder with inheritances and gifted deposits.

I wouldn't begrudge someone else their fortune, but when your friend who earns £25k goes out to work in the morning and by the time they come home at the end of the day their flat has made more money than they have, whereas you earn £50k but by the time you've paid your rent and bills the amount you have left doesn't seem to be getting you any closer to home ownership, you really do have to wonder what the point of it all is.

racing_blue wrote: »

Don't get me wrong- I understand frustration about not being able to afford some of the things our parents did. But their world was perhaps less colourful, less connected, less complex, less informed. And we are not in that world any more.

The problem is, the "nice to have" things are more affordable, whereas the "need to have" things are increasingly unaffordable.

racing_blue

littlegreenfrog wrote: »

I'm pretty sure doctors and teachers earn a lot more money in those places. Can't see public sector workers in the UK getting a pay rise any time soon.

Do doctors and teachers need to work exclusively in the public sector? The doctor might spend her evenings doing botox in a private clinic. The teacher might spend his evenings tutoring Russians and his holidays examining in Hong Kong.

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