Tenancy Agreement and Renewal

amyloofoo

G_M wrote: »

3) I see they refer to "your section 21 issued at the start of your tenancy ".
This is important so aswer clearly:

a) was this really served? How?
b) exactly what date?
c) exactly what date did the tenancy start?
d) exactly what date did you pay a deposit?
e) exactly what date was the deposit registered in an official scheme?
g) have you received the 'Prescribed Information' relating to the deposit (see Prescribed Information here for examples)

answer all questions fully.

I have found a section 21 which is signed included with the deposit protection info - it was signed on 8/4/15, drawn up on 30/03/15. The date of expiry is after 15/04/16. It must have been included with the documents when we renewed the tenancy last time, however I was heavily pregnant and clearly have a bad case of baby brain as I don't remember it.

The tenancy started on 16/04/14 but was renewed on 16/04/15.

The deposit was received and registered with the tenancy deposit scheme on 16th April 2014. I have the deposit certificate (2 of them) and a 'What is the TDS' leaflet but nothing further.

G_M

Pixie5740 wrote: »

.......Not that you've actually be served one yet. ......

Harassment is a criminal matter and should be reported to the police, not the council.

OP said that the agent said:

As we had issued you a section 21 notice at the beginning of your tenancy, this is in effect your notice to leave the property when your tenancy comes to an end.

That S21 Notice may, or may not, be valid - hence my list of questions.

But as you say pixie, even IF valid, it does not end the tenancy. Only a court can do that.

OP - whether the S21 notice is valid or not (please answer the questions above) my advice is the same.

DO NOT RESPOND

Regulars on the forum here will know that I frequently advise people to communicate with each other over issues, not rush to court, or legalistic arguments (the G_M cake & tea approach).

In this case tea & cake (and communication) will not work.

Nobbie1967

amyloofoo wrote: »

I have found a section 21 which is signed included with the deposit protection info - it was signed on 8/4/15, drawn up on 30/03/15. The date of expiry is after 15/04/16. It must have been included with the documents when we renewed the tenancy last time, however I was heavily pregnant and clearly have a bad case of baby brain as I don't remember it.

The tenancy started on 16/04/14 but was renewed on 16/04/15.

The deposit was received and registered with the tenancy deposit scheme on 16th April 2014. I have the deposit certificate (2 of them) and a 'What is the TDS' leaflet but nothing further.

I'm sure GM will confirm it, but I believe the S21 signed on the 8/4/15 is nullified by the offer and acceptance of a new tenancy on 16/4/15. They have effectively asked you to leave and then asked you to stay a week later. Best not to point this out to the LA though :-)

HappyMJ

I'm going to jump in on this one too.

DO NOT RESPOND

ViolaLass

Amy, I'm at the end of my knowledge of this situation and there are others advising you far better than I can but I would like to express my sympathy for the situation you find yourself in. It is rubbish and being badly handled.

In your position, I would strongly consider going to the police to complain of harassment.

G_M

amyloofoo wrote: »

I have found a section 21 which is signed included with the deposit protection info -

it was
drawn up on 30/03/15.
signed on 8/4/15, by who? LL/agent? or you?
served on you when? 8/4/15?
The date of expiry is after 15/04/16.

The tenancy started on 16/04/14
but was renewed on 16/04/15.

So the S21 appears to have been served before the renewed tenancy commenced. It is therefore invalid.


The deposit was received and registered with the tenancy deposit scheme on 16th April 2014. I have the deposit certificate (2 of them) and a 'What is the TDS' leaflet but nothing further.

* the S21 seems to be invalid due to the dates
* it may also be invalid unless you have the full 'Prescribed Information' - see my link to example above for your scheme.

This does not alter my advice.

DO NOT RESPOND.

If you write/email etc suggesting the S21 is invalid

a) they will disagree/argue with you, increasing your stress further, and acomplishing nothing
b) they may serve a new, valid, S21

Do nothing. If (and it's a big if) the landlord goes to court to evict you because you don't sign a new contract (but why would he?), you then defend his action by showing the S21 is invalid, and the LL will lose.

FBaby

Sorry to play devil's advocate but I fail to see how you are going to benefit from taking the current approach of ignoring their communication. So assuming the S21 isn't valid. All that will happen is that they will issue another one so all it does is delay the proces. Then what? You don't move, so they take you to court. Then what? You have to go. Are you happy that this could be the outcome? What happens if you haven't found a house to buy by then? Will you need to look at renting elsewhere? But of course, if you do, you are likely to struggle to find a landlord happy to offer a monthly tenancy from the start and most likely will only find property that comes with a minimum of 6 months agreement.

So you are risking finding yourself having to move, look for somewhere else to rent, having to sign a 6 months tenancy anyway, with all the fees that come with it....and to add to it, most likely a very poor reference.

I totally agree that the attitude of the LA was appalling and they deserve nothing else but to be treated with contempt, but unfortunately, I am not sure the way you've dealt with it will lead to what you were ultimately hoping for, to stay in this property and able to leave when you wish. Renting is very much being at the mercy of the landlord but sometimes you are better off just accepting it.

Mrs_pbradley936

FBaby wrote: »

Sorry to play devil's advocate but I fail to see how you are going to benefit from taking the current approach of ignoring their communication. So assuming the S21 isn't valid. All that will happen is that they will issue another one so all it does is delay the proces. Then what? You don't move, so they take you to court. Then what? You have to go. Are you happy that this could be the outcome? What happens if you haven't found a house to buy by then? Will you need to look at renting elsewhere? But of course, if you do, you are likely to struggle to find a landlord happy to offer a monthly tenancy from the start and most likely will only find property that comes with a minimum of 6 months agreement.

So you are risking finding yourself having to move, look for somewhere else to rent, having to sign a 6 months tenancy anyway, with all the fees that come with it....and to add to it, most likely a very poor reference.

I totally agree that the attitude of the LA was appalling and they deserve nothing else but to be treated with contempt, but unfortunately, I am not sure the way you've dealt with it will lead to what you were ultimately hoping for, to stay in this property and able to leave when you wish. Renting is very much being at the mercy of the landlord but sometimes you are better off just accepting it.

The OP wants to be on a periodic tenancy and is entitled to be.

The agent wants another set of fees.

The agent is harassing the OP and is denying them the right of "quiet enjoyment".

Their behaviour is unprofessional at least and illegal at worst and you want the OP to accept this? Why on earth would they?

ViolaLass

FBaby wrote: »

Renting is very much being at the mercy of the landlord but sometimes you are better off just accepting it.

The LL agreed with what the OP wants. The problem is the agent, not the LL.

amyloofoo

G_M wrote: »

* the S21 seems to be invalid due to the dates

Just to clarify - The AST states

Date: 20 March 2015

then further down states:

Term: For the term of twelve months commencing on 16 April 2015

Neither signature has been dated, but presumably was 8 April

* it may also be invalid unless you have the full 'Prescribed Information' - see my link to example above for your scheme.

Apologies, I was out earlier so didn't look carefully enough. The prescribed information is stapled to the back of the tenancy agreement

This does not alter my advice.

DO NOT RESPOND.

I won't be responding further to them. I am going to be going down the formal complaint route though (as otherwise have no recourse to the ombudsman) and have now been provided with an email address to send it to.

If you write/email etc suggesting the S21 is invalid

a) they will disagree/argue with you, increasing your stress further, and acomplishing nothing
b) they may serve a new, valid, S21

Do nothing. If (and it's a big if) the landlord goes to court to evict you because you don't sign a new contract (but why would he?), you then defend his action by showing the S21 is invalid, and the LL will lose.

Thank you for your advice and patience throughout.

FBaby wrote: »

Sorry to play devil's advocate but I fail to see how you are going to benefit from taking the current approach of ignoring their communication. So assuming the S21 isn't valid. All that will happen is that they will issue another one so all it does is delay the proces. Then what? You don't move, so they take you to court. Then what? You have to go. Are you happy that this could be the outcome? What happens if you haven't found a house to buy by then? Will you need to look at renting elsewhere? But of course, if you do, you are likely to struggle to find a landlord happy to offer a monthly tenancy from the start and most likely will only find property that comes with a minimum of 6 months agreement.

So you are risking finding yourself having to move, look for somewhere else to rent, having to sign a 6 months tenancy anyway, with all the fees that come with it....and to add to it, most likely a very poor reference.

I totally agree that the attitude of the LA was appalling and they deserve nothing else but to be treated with contempt, but unfortunately, I am not sure the way you've dealt with it will lead to what you were ultimately hoping for, to stay in this property and able to leave when you wish. Renting is very much being at the mercy of the landlord but sometimes you are better off just accepting it.

I do take your point, which is why initially I was considering whether a request for a break clause could work for both parties (and why I simply signed and paid last year ) - but this isn't really appropriate for our current circumstances. We have seen a property today that we intend to put an offer on, so hopefully we won't come to worst case scenarios! It's just very frustrating it's come to this.

On the point about references though, I would presume that much like employment references they don't have to be positive but they do have to be factual? With the exception of not wanting to renew our fixed term, we've been model tenants so I would hope they couldn't give us a horrendous reference. I appreciate this is probably naive! :oJust for the sake of complete-ness (and I will not be responding), I had a further email from the letting manager this evening as follows:

Dear **our names**,

I realised I hadn’t discussed who you need to contact regarding a formal complaint, please contact **ceo** at **letting agency**[EMAIL="kristian@hmwass.co.uk"][/EMAIL] and he will respond within 28 days.

The Section 21 that was issued at the beginning of this fixed term, terminates the assured shorthold tenancy which means that you cannot roll onto a statutory periodic tenancy. I have attached the signed Section 21.

Thanks in advance


Thank you to everyone who has responded, you've all been very kind and informative and have helped me to feel a lot more calm about the situation.