Are these deductions from our deposit fair?

AlistairM

Hi MSE users.


We've just had a message back from the WH Brown saying they want to deduct almost £500 from our deposit. Some of it is fair but I don't believe all of it is.


We've lived in the flat for over 5 years, all the fittings are older than that but the flat had been repainted and we moved while the paint was still drying.


Here's the breakdown:


Cost of cleaning. £50
We cleaned and had the help of a professional cleaner friend.

Damage to door frame of front doors para 1.1.1. £50
Ware and tear?

Bed 1 mould damage caused by lack of ventilation £40
We kept our windows open daily (advantage of a 2nd floor flat) and also ran a dehumidifier. We ran the heating twice daily. I feel this was plenty of ventilation, except for when the boiler broke down and we had no heating for several weeks some years ago.


Bed 2 mould damage caused by lack of ventilation£40
See Bed 1

Living room mould damage caused by lack of ventilation £40
See Bed 1

New Co alarm (battery and back cover missing). £20
Ok

Smoke alarm battery in kitchen. £5
Really?

Kitchen mould damage caused by lack of ventilation £40
See Bed 1

Missing melamine from kitchen shelf £25
Ware and tear?

Lifting melamine from kitchen shelf. £25
Ware and tear?

Marking /scratched kitchen sink. £20
Ware and tear

Bathroom mould damage caused by lack of ventilation including sealant window, curtain and blind £60
See Bed 1 - we even bought an anti-mould curtain a while ago.

Broken plug chain £10
Agreed

Toilet brush. £5
Threw away because who'd want someone else's brush but fair, we should have left one.

Scaling to bath and basin fittings and tiles £50
Sink is installed at an angle that meant water didn't drain and was cleaned a couple of times a month so scale was hard to deal with


We left the flat with a checkout on a Friday and the new tenant took possession on the following Monday which makes me doubt any of the work they mentioned have been carried out. Tempted to try and contact the new tenant by post and see if they can confirm but don't want to be a pest.


I feel maybe I should just let it go and get on with life but its a lot of money so I wanted to ask here first. Do you think any of these deductions are right or wrong?




Thanks

Pixie5740

How does the check-in inventory compare with the check-out inventory?

If you left the property as clean as it was at the start of the tenancy I'd dispute the cleaning charge.

Damage to the door frames is not fair wear & tear, it's damage.

Did you ever report the mould problem to the landlord (in writing) because it seems as though the problem was pretty bad if there is mould damage in every room despite you running a dehumidifier.

I'm not sure about the CO and smoke alarm charges. Your landlord isn't entitled to new for old, that would be betterment but maybe £25 for both items is reasonable.

How did the melamine go missing? How did the melamine lift? Could be damage or it could be fair wear & tear. How old are the kitchen units?

Kitchen sink, how badly marked is it? Over time stainless steel sinks do show some signs of marking.

Plug and toilet brush you accept.

Scaling, I'm not really sure why it would be difficult to clean from your description. Was it clean when you moved in?

The landlord can charge you for damage and cleaning without having to carry out the repairs or cleaning (I don't make the rules). If you think you cleaned the place to the same standard as it was at the start of your tenancy then I'd dispute that. The jury is out on the mould damage and melamine until you give more details.

Guest101

AlistairM wrote: »

Hi MSE users.


We've just had a message back from the WH Brown saying they want to deduct almost £500 from our deposit. Some of it is fair but I don't believe all of it is.


We've lived in the flat for over 5 years, all the fittings are older than that but the flat had been repainted and we moved while the paint was still drying.


Here's the breakdown:


Cost of cleaning. £50
We cleaned and had the help of a professional cleaner friend.

Damage to door frame of front doors para 1.1.1. £50
Ware and tear?

Bed 1 mould damage caused by lack of ventilation £40
We kept our windows open daily (advantage of a 2nd floor flat) and also ran a dehumidifier. We ran the heating twice daily. I feel this was plenty of ventilation, except for when the boiler broke down and we had no heating for several weeks some years ago.


Bed 2 mould damage caused by lack of ventilation£40
See Bed 1

Living room mould damage caused by lack of ventilation £40
See Bed 1

New Co alarm (battery and back cover missing). £20
Ok

Smoke alarm battery in kitchen. £5
Really?

Kitchen mould damage caused by lack of ventilation £40
See Bed 1

Missing melamine from kitchen shelf £25
Ware and tare?

Lifting melamine from kitchen shelf. £25
Ware and tare?

Marking /scratched kitchen sink. £20
Ware and tare

Bathroom mould damage caused by lack of ventilation including sealant window, curtain and blind £60
See Bed 1 - we even bought an anti-mould curtain a while ago.

Broken plug chain £10
Agreed

Toilet brush. £5
Threw away because who'd want someone else's brush but fair, we should have left one.

Scaling to bath and basin fittings and tiles £50
Sink is installed at an angle that meant water didn't drain and was cleaned a couple of times a month so scale was hard to deal with


We left the flat with a checkout on a Friday and the new tenant took possession on the following Monday which makes me doubt any of the work they mentioned have been carried out. See point 3 below. Tempted to try and contact the new tenant by post and see if they can confirm but don't want to be a pest.


I feel maybe I should just let it go and get on with life but its a lot of money so I wanted to ask here first. Do you think any of these deductions are right or wrong?




Thanks

1: Dispute all of it with the registered scheme - wrote exactly what you wrote here (except where you say it's fair, say the effective life of the object has been used up)
2: it's Wear and Tear*
3: The LL does not have to carry out the work for the deductions to be legit (im not saying these are legit.)

Carrie_bie

Definitely tell the Landlord and the Letting Agent that you dispute it and want to use the deposit dispute service. They will then send you the info to create a dispute. It's a really great service and is easy to use. First of all you submit how much money is in dispute, explain what the charges are and why you think they are unfair, provide your evidence and comments, and then the Landlords get to respond. I think the whole thing takes about 2/3 months.

The onus will be on the Landlords to PROVE how much it will cost them to repair ANYTHING they want to charge you for. This doesn't mean they have to carry out the work - they just need a quote for it.

That does mean they won't be able to just invent numbers, like £25 for a bit of melamine damage on a kitchen shelf?!?

This will make quite a bit of hard work for them, which I feel serves them right when they're taking the mick, but it's also fair in cases where tenants are the ones in the wrong. The dispute people will make the final call on what is, or isn't, fair wear and tear, and their ruling is final.

I used this service last summer after a greedy landlord tried to sting us for some ridiculous charges. I even got my own quotes for the repairs they wanted, and provided prices for things that they had overpriced, e.g. they tried to charge us £35 for a "designer" plug socket that had become cracked; I found a comparable one on Wickes' website for £6. We got back every single penny of the deposit.

I don't see how a smoke alarm battery is £5 - you can buy them in Poundland. That's just cheeky.

AlistairM

Pixie5740 wrote: »

How does the check-in inventory compare with the check-out inventory?

If you left the property as clean as it was at the start of the tenancy I'd dispute the cleaning charge. We lived in the property for 5 years it was clean when we took over and it was clean when we left, some discolouration to white goods is the worst I can think was left

Damage to the door frames is not fair wear & tear, it's damage.
I should say doors didn't ever close properly and rubbed against the frame.

Did you ever report the mould problem to the landlord (in writing) because it seems as though the problem was pretty bad if there is mould damage in every room despite you running a dehumidifier.
We had a condensation problem and we didn't want to get mould. When we moved was a tiny bit of mould we noticed when we moved the units out but it was negligible

I'm not sure about the CO and smoke alarm charges. Your landlord isn't entitled to new for old, that would be betterment but maybe £25 for both items is reasonable.
Sounds fair

How did the melamine go missing? How did the melamine lift? Could be damage or it could be fair wear & tear. How old are the kitchen units?
The units were not new when we moved in and that was over 5 years ago. I don't remember the melamine ever being there but have no proof either way. The lifting just happened. Obviously its not something I'd deliberately try and remove.

Kitchen sink, how badly marked is it? Over time stainless steel sinks do show some signs of marking. Just faint scratches no gouges or anything, that kind of ring scratches like you get on cars sometimes.

Plug and toilet brush you accept.

Scaling, I'm not really sure why it would be difficult to clean from your description. Was it clean when you moved in? They were clean 5 years ago, just if you ever used the taps drips would run down the housing and pool in recesses of the sink. But no I don't recall it being that way 5 years ago, it just gradually built up over time and no amount of scrubbing would shift it.



The landlord can charge you for damage and cleaning without having to carry out the repairs or cleaning (I don't make the rules). If you think you cleaned the place to the same standard as it was at the start of your tenancy then I'd dispute that. The jury is out on the mould damage and melamine until you give more details. Fair enough. I always thought that deductions were made from the deposit against costs they landlord incurred.


If they don't carry out the work how do they determine a reasonable charge? Is there a website or handbook they refer to? Get a quote? Or can they just list as high of a price as they can feel entitled to?


The independent checkout man even said he thought it looked very good considering we had been in there for almost 6 years and not to expect many deductions
[/QUOTE]



Thanks for your input Pixie I've replied to your questions in green. I have never rented before and wont again hopefully so all your input is greatly appreciated.

AlistairM

Guest101 wrote: »

1: Dispute all of it with the registered scheme - wrote exactly what you wrote here (except where you say it's fair, say the effective life of the object has been used up)
2: it's Wear and Tear* Ugh! Sorry how embarrassing, I've fixed it now, I did get it right in the first instance!
3: The LL does not have to carry out the work for the deductions to be legit (im not saying these are legit.) Thanks, as I'm finding out. Make up a figure and see if it sticks seems to be the rule! :P

Thanks G101 I knew you'd show up on this and give a fair info

Guest101

AlistairM wrote: »

Thanks G101 I knew you'd show up on this and give a fair info

My reputation precedes me


Google 'betterment' and have a quick read. I think it will apply to any of the object claimed for.


Remember that the LLs 'use of' includes time when you are there, as the LL exchanges use of the item for rent.


Update your comments (include any pictures you have) and post on here for a final read through.


(which scheme is it?)

AlistairM

Carrie_bie wrote: »

Definitely tell the Landlord and the Letting Agent that you dispute it and want to use the deposit dispute service. They will then send you the info to create a dispute. It's a really great service and is easy to use. First of all you submit how much money is in dispute, explain what the charges are and why you think they are unfair, provide your evidence and comments, and then the Landlords get to respond. I think the whole thing takes about 2/3 months.

The onus will be on the Landlords to PROVE how much it will cost them to repair ANYTHING they want to charge you for. This doesn't mean they have to carry out the work - they just need a quote for it.

That does mean they won't be able to just invent numbers, like £25 for a bit of melamine damage on a kitchen shelf?!?

This will make quite a bit of hard work for them, which I feel serves them right when they're taking the mick, but it's also fair in cases where tenants are the ones in the wrong. The dispute people will make the final call on what is, or isn't, fair wear and tear, and their ruling is final.

I used this service last summer after a greedy landlord tried to sting us for some ridiculous charges. I even got my own quotes for the repairs they wanted, and provided prices for things that they had overpriced, e.g. they tried to charge us £35 for a "designer" plug socket that had become cracked; I found a comparable one on Wickes' website for £6. We got back every single penny of the deposit.

I don't see how a smoke alarm battery is £5 - you can buy them in Poundland. That's just cheeky.

Thanks Carrie


How does that work exactly? We email the agency and ask them to open the case or what?

G_M

AlistairM wrote: »

Some of it is fair but I don't believe all of it is.
Then agree the fair bits and dispute the unfair bits

We've lived in the flat for over 5 years, all the fittings are older than that but the flat had been repainted and we moved while the paint was still drying.

Cost of cleaning. £50
We cleaned and had the help of a professional cleaner friend.
was it as clean when you left as when you arrived?
what does the inventory say?

Damage to door frame of front doors para 1.1.1. £50
Ware and tear?
damage is not wear & tear. It's 'damage'!

Bed 1 mould damage caused by lack of ventilation £40
We kept our windows open daily (advantage of a 2nd floor flat) and also ran a dehumidifier. We ran the heating twice daily. I feel this was plenty of ventilation, except for when the boiler broke down and we had no heating for several weeks some years ago.
Mould on a bed? Wierd.
Still - dispute.

Bed 2 mould damage caused by lack of ventilation£40
See Bed 1
see above

Living room mould damage caused by lack of ventilation £40
See Bed 1
see above

New Co alarm (battery and back cover missing). £20
Ok

Smoke alarm battery in kitchen. £5
Really?
Yes! True you can get cheap ones at Poundland, but standard retail price is higher. And the labour cost is higher still.

Kitchen mould damage caused by lack of ventilation £40
See Bed 1

Missing melamine from kitchen shelf £25
Ware and tear?
'missing' is not wear & tear. It is 'missing'!

Lifting melamine from kitchen shelf. £25
Ware and tear?
Possibly. Depends why it is lifting. Damage? Water damage? Or age (ie wear and tear)

Marking /scratched kitchen sink. £20
Ware and tear
'marking/scratches' is not wear & tear. It is 'marking' or 'scratches'!

Bathroom mould damage caused by lack of ventilation including sealant window, curtain and blind £60
See Bed 1 - we even bought an anti-mould curtain a while ago.
see above

Broken plug chain £10
Agreed

Toilet brush. £5
Threw away because who'd want someone else's brush but fair, we should have left one.
correct. You should have left one.

Scaling to bath and basin fittings and tiles £50
Sink is installed at an angle that meant water didn't drain and was cleaned a couple of times a month so scale was hard to deal with
If only cleaed a couple of times a month that would increase the amount of limescale.
Fair deduction


We left the flat with a checkout on a Friday and the new tenant took possession on the following Monday which makes me doubt any of the work they mentioned have been carried out. Tempted to try and contact the new tenant by post and see if they can confirm but don't want to be a pest.
whether the work was caried out is not relevant. If damage is caused, the person responsible for it is liable for the cost. the owner can choose whether to repair or not. The cost is established on the basis of retail value, and/or quotes for labour.

I feel maybe I should just let it go and get on with life but its a lot of money so I wanted to ask here first. Do you think any of these deductions are right or wrong?

Thanks

The mould is the major issue that is unclear.

If what you say about ventilating and heating is true, then there must be another cause of the mould, which might be structural and therefore the landlord's responsibility.

However, a very common cause is, indeed, lifestyle and lack of ventilation.

eg - how/where did you dry washing? Indoors? Over radiators?

If you can show that there is/was a structural problem with the property causing internal damp, then clearly you are not responsible. Did you complain, in writing, during the tenancy, of any such issue? Did you complain, in writing, of the mould?

Failing this, it may be assumed by the LL/agent and/or adjudicator that tenant behaviour was responsible.

See also:

* Deposits: payment, protection and return

and

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/housing/repairs-in-rented-housing/disrepair-common-problems/disrepair-condensation-dampness/

AlistairM

G_M wrote: »

The mould is the major issue that is unclear.

If what you say about ventilating and heating is true, then there must be another cause of the mould, which might be structural and therefore the landlord's responsibility.

However, a very common cause is, indeed, lifestyle and lack of ventilation.

eg - how/were did you dry washing? Indoors? Over radiators?

If you can show that there is/was a structural problem with the property causing internal damp, then clearly you are not responsible. Did you complain, in writing, during the tenancy, of any such issue? Did you complain, in writing, of the mould?

Failing this, it may be assumed by the LL/agent and/or adjudicator that tenant behaviour was responsible.

See also:

* Deposits: payment, protection and return

and

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/housing/repairs-in-rented-housing/disrepair-common-problems/disrepair-condensation-dampness/

Thanks GM you make good points.


Bed1 just means bedroom 1 the flats unfurnished.


I'll reiterate there wasn't a really a mould problem so we didn't ever complain. I thought that's what the flat inspections every 6 months were about. There was always lots of condensation on the windows causing some mildew that we'd keep clearing of the window seals. I think the double glazing was blown in bedroom 1.


When we moved furniture out we did notice a tiny amount of mould and it was very minor.




We did dry the washing inside as there was no garden or option to do otherwise but we ALWAYS opened the windows wide and only ever did it in the one room with the door shut and the dehumidifier on.


The paint was till wet in places when we moved in so I think its just always been damp.


Now I'm thinking about possible causes for damp it's making me wonder. This a stretch, could moisture coming up from the flat below?


We have a neighbour on the ground floor whose place smells like weed, the smell is most noticeable outside their door. The smell was also really strong in the airing cupboard of the bathroom could it be that all the moisture from downstairs was coming up from there? I did let the police know but nothing as far as I know became of that.


They didn't bother show up when we called 999 when a drunk neighbour tried to kick our front door down because we wouldn't answer the door to him after his partner kicked him out.


(You can see why we were so eager to move now!)


Another think that probably didn't help was the builder who installed the boiler didn't properly insulate the new hole he made for the chute which wasn't visible and we only realised was there when we had a problem with a starling who kept squeezing in from behind the boiler.

Corelli

For future reference it is possible to remove limescale and I'm surprised that your professional cleaner friend did not mention this.

The cheapest and most eco friendly is to soak kitchen towel (do NOT dispose of down the toilet) or toilet paper in white vinegar and leave on the limescale for half an hour or more. This should soften it enough to remove it with a plastic or rubber implement that will not damage the ceramic. Repeat if necessary.

For a real bad case, use Kilrock or failing that Viakel, which is not quite as tough and can stain if left in situ for a while.

Good luck with all the rest, I wouldn't presume to comment when the experts have already advised.