Advice - contract with Rawreth Builders Limited

clockworkdog

Hi

I am after some help. I appreciate that advice is not any guarentee of how a county court will determine the case in light of the full facts.

A friend recommended a builder to us for a big renovation of a house we bought. In this case, (text removed by MSE Forum Team).. [Name removed by Forum Team] came to see us and I then emailed him in writing what I wanted. He replied back and his quote was on an email and was signed (text removed by MSE Forum Team). Things went back and forth and we agreed the price via email. This was the only written contract we had with him.

Cutting a long story short, we paid him £167,500K (in full). The wet room floor has leaked repeatedly and he made numerous attempts go fix. Eventually, an expert he sent round said it was constructed completely wrong and had to be ripped out. [Name removed by Forum Team] agreed that this needed to happen, but basically walked away refusing to put right because he did not want to pay. He left our bathroom floor ripped up and the downstairs ceiling ripped out.

Something I didn't know at the time I entered into the contract, was that he operated a limited company called Rawreth Builders Limited. When I proceeded at County Court, I proceeded against Rawreth Builders Limited. Despite saying he intended to defend, he failed to submit a defence within the four weeks. I actually waited 7 weeks and then filed for judgement by default. This was issues and so Rawreth Builders Limited has a County Court Judgement against them. He refuses to pay, and has told the bailiff he has no money and has stopped trading. I know he has not stopped trading. The county bailiff says there is nothing more she can do.

Our problems don't stop there, the 60m2 floor he installed in our kitchen/family room has tiles breaking everywhere. He has used a dot and dab technique using 1/4 amount of adhesive he should have done, and has tiled straight onto the pipework and polystyrene base. This is all incorrect. This is now going to cost a fortune to fix.

My question:

Was my contract with him or his company??

He never told us he was a limited company. He only ever signed emails as (text removed by MSE Forum Team). He never issues a contract between Rawreth Builders Limited and us. He never gave us in invoice showing Rawreth Builders Limited (he never invoiced at all and regularly asked for large amounts in cash). We onlt ever saw the company sign once he started work and put this up outside and turned up with company vans.

In the very first email, he did thank me for allowing his company to quote us. I never noticed that word. But that email was again signed [Name removed by Forum Team] and there was no mention of Rawreth Builders Limited. That is the only mention of the word `company' and certainly no clue this was a limited company.

As a consumer, how will courts view my position? We can prove he has lied about stuff in writing. He never told us this was a limited company - we thought it was him as a sole trader. I want to proceed against him personally as this is the only way I think I am likely to get him to fix what he has caused through corner cutting and putting us through hell. Can I, should I, proceed against him personally??

Thanks for any advice anyone can give.

Andrew

naedanger

From what you say it seems that your contract was with him as an individual. (The fact he turned up with vans showing a company name is irrelevant, as he could have outsourced the work to that company. But that would not affect your contract with him.)

However why did you take his company to court rather than him?

Also have you checked whether he, personally, has any assets (or alternatively has any bad debt)?

clockworkdog

naedanger wrote: »

From what you say it seems that your contract was with him as an individual. (The fact he turned up with vans showing a company name is irrelevant, as he could have outsourced the work to that company. But that would not affect your contract with him.)

However why did you take his company to court rather than him?

Also have you checked whether he, personally, has any assets (or alternatively has any bad debt)?

Hi

Thank you for your reply and thoughts on the matter.

It's the first time I've ever had to do anything like this so I didn't even realise the significance of who I proceeded against. I didn't realise that it was so easy for someone to hide behind a company name and I didn't even think about who my contract was with.

Talking to a friend, they have now raised the question about who the contract was with. We weren't sure but having looked at it, the only stuff in writing is between him (text removed by MSE Forum Team). and us.

Never checked for personal debt etc. Not sure how to. He lives just down the road in Hullbridge, Essex and has a house and cars (have seen him in Mercedes and other nice cars). So he certainlyseems to have asset.

We have been through hell and desperately need to put things right but cannot afford any more money. I hope we can pursue him personally as he seems to have just walked away having supplied the bailiffs with some company accounts showing he has no money.

Andrew

bris

Who did you pay? Him personally or was it made out to the ltd co. You didn't give him 167k in cash so what bank account did it go in?


You will also have an invoice, who's name is it in?


The fact you have been to court with this strongly suggests to me that you are dealing with the ltd co, in which case you are on a loser.


As for the post above everything to me looks like it's all down to the ltd co so he is not personally liable, a rogue yes but then it's a ploy that's been going on for years.

naedanger

Based on what you have said, I think you should still be able to sue him in a personal capacity even though you have already won a case about the same matter against another entity - namely his limited liability company. However I don't know if your previous case will complicate matters. (At the very least he may use it as evidence you knew your contract was with the company rather than him personally.)

He lives just down the road in Hullbridge, Essex and has a house and cars (have seen him in Mercedes and other nice cars). So he certainly has asset. We have been through hell and desperately need to put things right but cannot afford any more money. I hope we can pursue him personally as he seems to have just walked away having supplied the bailiffs with some accounts showing he has no money.

Just because he has all the trappings of money does not necessarily mean he has assets in his name. They might all be in the name of his wife (or family members), or otherwise hidden away. And everything you see may be rented (or have other debts secured against them). Crooks can find ways of hiding money from the police (who have far more powers to investigate) far less ordinary creditors. In my view you should consider doing a credit check on him personally before taking further action.

PS - Be prepared to receive some posts that are very critical of your earlier actions from other posters. (I suggest you ignore them unless you think answering will help you decide what to do now.)

clockworkdog

bris wrote: »

Who did you pay? Him personally or was it made out to the ltd co. You didn't give him 167k in cash so what bank account did it go in?


You will also have an invoice, who's name is it in?


The fact you have been to court with this strongly suggests to me that you are dealing with the ltd co, in which case you are on a loser.


As for the post above everything to me looks like it's all down to the ltd co so he is not personally liable, a rogue yes but then it's a ploy that's been going on for years.

Never had an invoice. Only a contract between him (text removed by MSE Forum Team) and me. My thinking is that the deciding issue here is who was in a contract with who - not who I pay afterwards and not who I might have sued afterwards. For example, I also paid his kitchen sub-contractor some money directly for more expensive units. I do hope the courts sees that the contract is between me and him! :-o

clockworkdog

naedanger wrote: »

Based on what you have said, I think you should still be able to sue him in a personal capacity even though you have already won a case about the same matter against another entity - namely his limited liability company. However I don't know if your previous case will complicate matters. (At the very least he may use it as evidence you knew your contract was with the company rather than him personally.)


Just because he has all the trappings of money does not necessarily mean he has assets in his name. They might all be in the name of his wife (or family members), or otherwise hidden away. And everything you see may be rented (or have other debts secured against them). Crooks can find ways of hiding money from the police (who have far more powers to investigate) far less ordinary creditors. In my view you should consider doing a credit check on him personally before taking further action.

PS - Be prepared to receive some posts that are very critical of your earlier actions from other posters. (I suggest you ignore them unless you think answering will help you decide what to do now.)

Thank you - sounds like good advice. I have every email and text between him and me. I just hope the court will look at who the contract was with in the beginning as opposed to me later (over a lengthy period of time), seeing him and his company as one and the same (which I now realise they are not!). Thank you again.

Blackbeard_of_Perranporth

BoP now provides advise for the watchers of televisual devices with regard to renovating property. You have two choices

1 Pop down the Bridge Inn on any Friday night, stand by the nice cosy log fire and throw £50 notes on it

2 Employ an architect to manage the project, setting schedules for completion of work, inspecting work and provides a means for a schedule of payments to be made when satisfactory gates are met during the renovation

Stop watching televisuals on property renovations

Sorry not the answer op would want to see, but if it prevents another from venturing without thought!

bris

Of course it's who you pay, every company has an individual that you deal with but they represent the company they work for. You don't hand over 500 quid for a TV to the salesman in currys then sue him if it goes wrong do you?


If you paid the ltd co which is who you sued then your stuck, if the money went to him personally then you could try again.


Your deflecting and living in hope though, I can't see any reason you would sue the ltd co unless they got the money.

pmduk

In view of the amount involved it might be worth an initial interview with a solicitor.

hollydays

I take it the current proposal to strike off the company is because their accounts are overdue?