jenny

jenny_&_mark

we have a gorgeous 8 year old german shepherd. his insurance has risen from £12 a month when he was a baby to £95 a month now!! He has a pancreatic disease so has been on lypex capsules twice a day all his life and he can't eat anything fatty. (He is on a certain food for the condition - which is not covered by the insurance) He reached the £4000 limit per ailment recently. We are trying to decide if we carry on paying the insurance which will no longer cover his ongoing problem and risk he won't need any expensive treatment for anything else. Obviously being an older dog it is possible but on the other hand he would need quite a lot of treatment to warrant the £1140 we will be paying per year.
Has anyone else got any experience of this - to be honest I know now I should have read the small print at the beginning!!

rising_from_the_ashes

So sorry to hear this

I would never be without accident & injury insurance at a minimum - usually around £2k - £3k which should cover most things such as a broken leg etc

My advice is to weigh up the cost of his ongoing medication - which might be a lot cheaper with a prescription from the vet and buying online (which we tend not to bother doing when we have insurance) and might therefore be affordable

If he's only reached the £4k limit after 8 years then hopefully it will be manageable

If you do go down the route of 'self insurance', personally I would put the premium that would've been spent on insurance into a separate account for his vet treatment and let it mount up and hopefully (with the back up of the accident and injury insurance for any of those incidents) it should cover his vet care

This is what I had to do when my insurer pulled out & I couldn't afford the premiums with the new provider (some people were quoted £500 / MONTH! - we think to get rid of them) - and although I did manage to find cover elsewhere (just as she was just under the age limit most will take them on) - it was a fair bit more than I had been paying & she had loads of (thankfully minor) conditions that I had to pay for anyway!

Yes you run the risk of 'old age' conditions such as arthritis etc but usually there are drugs for these that are affordable, especially with prescription / buying online - at his age and, if you've had no problems, you should be fairly confident that he's 'structurally' sound which should help alleviate those concerns

Not an easy decision .....

sangie595

I would agree. I am afraid this is the hard choice on insurance. Cheaper policies are often value for money - but they are also a long term risk. My insurance for my five month old dog is through the roof, I know it is. That is my choice because I know I am prepared to pay that for his life - and be insured for everything that could ever happen.

Eight is not yet old - but he is a senior dog. There is no getting away from that. But equally, he could have many more years to come, and the worst case is having to put him down because you can't afford him - not because that is the best choice for him.

I couldn't possibly start to tell you what to do. It's a devil you do and devil you don't situation. But eight is not all that old yet. Either way, if you are not already boosting his diet for old age - start now. Personally, I swear by Synflex, and swimming. A swim a month makes a big difference to older muscles. Synflex I started with my dogs - I now take it myself! So that is confidence that I see a difference.

For me, if it came to a choice between insurance and action - I'd choose action. Spend the money on trying to stave off the worst. But we all grow old - out dogs and us. Insurance can't keep any of us young. And it would be nice if we can all have both. But we can't.

krlyr

It is difficult, but remember that insurers are businesses. Your dog has cost them £4000, and they need to recoup that in some way (and the likelihood of other conditions cropping up have increased now he's 8, too)

Your options to consider are:
- keep paying the £95 a month. The pancreatic disease won't be covered, however, the chances of the insurers paying for any new conditions will be higher based on the fact you've stayed with them so long

- find another insurer to cover him. They may beat the £95 a month price, they'll exclude the pancreatic condition anyway. However, there's a chance they may deem a new condition as 'pre-existing', e.g. if he were to be diagnosed with something like arthritis, they might try to say it related to an injury or similar in his younger days, therefore excluding it from the policy. I would think back/check what conditions he's visited the vet for (even if you haven't claimed for them) and consider his overall health before taking this option.

- look into alternative, cheaper policies - e.g. accident only can be a fair amount less than illness & accident cover. Or see what 'extras' you can take off policies - some let you remove the bits like holiday cover, lost/stolen rewards, etc. which you may not deem necessary

- stop paying for insurance altogether and put the money in a savings pot. This has benefits and risks..if you don't claim, then you're quids in. However, if you stop paying for insurance and he develops a problem next month, you've got very little in your pot!

You could work around the latter with a few potential solutions...for example, if you already have some savings you could spare. Alternatively, you could use/get a credit card with a decent limit (a few thousand), and look into 0% transfers if you need to spread the cost over a longer period of time. Also explore the options your vet offers, in regards to payment plans. I know some people pay into a pot with their vet, i.e. building credit up 'just in case' - personally I'd rather keep the money in my bank, earning at least a few pennies interest, and within my control, but do understand there's sometimes the temptation or risk of it getting used for other purposes.

If you do stop insurance, then sign up to the Dogs Trust membership - for £25 a year, you get 3rd party liability insurance for all dogs in your household, which is something you'll be lacking if you stop the insurance. This will protect you if your dog was to injure/damage someone, their dogs, or their property.


You could also perhaps consider a mix of these options - e.g. find a cheaper, more basic insurance policy (accident only, or a 12 month limited illness/injury policy, for example) and put the difference into your savings pot - you have the backup of insurance for 1 year, while you build up a good fund.

Having just put a 9 year old Rottie x GSD through cruciate surgery, which has spanned into the thousands (thankfully vet dealing with insurers direct so I haven't actually seen a bill yet!), with a great prognosis (she's a very fit 9 year old, I'm expecting several more years with her at least), I'm very grateful for having her insured - it meant I could say yes to the surgery on the day of diagnosis and get it all sorted very quickly, without worrying about where the funds would come from or if I'd have enough to pick the best option.

krlyr

By the way, if it's EPI he's suffering (know it's something the breed is prone to), have you considered treating it with dietary means? EPI dogs are meant to respond to a raw diet very well, and you can supplement, or perhaps even replace entirely, the enzymes with fresh, raw pancreas, which should lower the cost of your vet bills
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/12_3/features/Exocrine-Pancreatic-Insuffinciency-in-Dogs_16109-1.html

I'd perhaps find a good vet with knowledge of EPI and raw feeding, or join some raw feeding/EPI groups, and explore the option if you haven't already. I raw-feed my Rottie x and GSD for about £60 a month - the GSD having a touch more than the Rottie x. I imagine with pancreas, it would be a little bit more, but it may well bring your costs down if you have to feed less of the Lypex capsules.

Also, don't know if you buy them direct from your vet, but the Lypex capsules aren't prescription-only from what I can see, so if you don't already, check out online pet pharmacies to see if you can get a better price for them than you're paying currently.

bugslet

I've got a multi dog household and have never had insurance and I reckon I must be way ahead. In 40 years of owning dogs, I've only had one expensive dog in terms of vets bills, and even she is probably breaking even with what I would have paid in vets fees.

I have a savings accounts for emergencies.

teddysmum

bugslet wrote: »

I've got a multi dog household and have never had insurance and I reckon I must be way ahead. In 40 years of owning dogs, I've only had one expensive dog in terms of vets bills, and even she is probably breaking even with what I would have paid in vets fees.

I have a savings accounts for emergencies.

I've never had insurance either in over 40 years, (though I would haver considered it, if I had sight hounds who are prone to leg/skin injuries) and have had up to four dogs at once. A retired vet, who was a member of a forum, I used, said they would advise no insurance , but put savings aside (even though they had been in a position to make money from insurance deals).


My last two dogs had MVD and medication, via the internet, was up to £50 a month, but only in their final months. Two springers had short but fatal heart disease and one of them had pyometra (in the days when spaying and GA were not a safe option), but over all I have saved £s.


My attitude is that, if I can't afford the treatment, then it will be quite nasty and I wouldn't want to put my dog through it.

grawiz

I am horrified at the cost of insurance, and the fees vets charge - no wonder the brightest youngsters choose to be vets rather than doctors: it is getting to the stage when the costs associated with owning a dog are becoming prohibitive simply because of veterinary fees. I wanted to buy some worming tablets for our dog online at a cost of £3-20, but they required a vet's prescription for which my vet wanted to charge me £15! He sold me the tablet for nearly £9, so the vets maintain their monopoly on simple meds allowing them mark-ups in the hundreds of percent. You are allowed to buy eye drops at the pharmacy to medicate your children, but if you say they are for you dog, they will not sell them to you. Why are the vets allowed to maintain this stranglehold?

sangie595

grawiz wrote: »

I am horrified at the cost of insurance, and the fees vets charge - no wonder the brightest youngsters choose to be vets rather than doctors: it is getting to the stage when the costs associated with owning a dog are becoming prohibitive simply because of veterinary fees. I wanted to buy some worming tablets for our dog online at a cost of £3-20, but they required a vet's prescription for which my vet wanted to charge me £15! He sold me the tablet for nearly £9, so the vets maintain their monopoly on simple meds allowing them mark-ups in the hundreds of percent. You are allowed to buy eye drops at the pharmacy to medicate your children, but if you say they are for you dog, they will not sell them to you. Why are the vets allowed to maintain this stranglehold?

They aren't and they don't. You are failing to recognise a number of factors which impact. And just to be clear - I am not a vet, not related to a vet, and don't know any vets (apart from the ones my dog sees).


In the first place, the "mark-up" is not from the vets. The vet is not allowed to buy from anyone except the pharmaceutical company, and because they buy in small quantities (a practice doesn't use a lot of meds and they have expiry dates) the cost to them is very high per tablet. The online prices are based on companies that buy in thousands of the tablets at a time (possibly more!) and sell large numbers to lots of people. My own vet, when I discussed this with him, told me that he couldn't buy the tablets for the price I could! He isn't allowed to buy them as I do! So when I needed them a year or so ago, I got a prescription and bought on line - which was what the vet actually recommended I did. Although there is a cost to the prescription, it still worked out cheaper - and my dog is insured anyway, so you could say that the only people I saved money for was the insurer.


There are the equivalent of "over the counter" medicines for dogs too, but any responsible site will ensure that they are selling you the right thing and that you understand its use. Any reputable (human) pharmacist is never going to let you dose your dog because they have no expertise in animal medicines, and if you make a mistake you can't then blame them (some human medicines over the counter are toxic to animals!). Again, I can't comment on all vets, but when my previous dog had a few weeks of heavy duty antibiotics they caused him a lot of gut problems (with the usual unpleasant effects) and my vet told me that I could use a human over the counter preparation (in the right doses) and that this was much cheaper and just as effective as the "dog equivalent" available anywhere. He was right.


Secondly, you are not comparing like for like. You pay an awful lot for the NHS - you just never add it up, and like insurance you pay it whether you use it or not. If you were to look at the cost of private treatment for humans, you would see that, in fact, the price of medical care and medications is comparable. In other words, it costs what it costs whether human or animal. You can argue about whether ALL those costs are exorbitant, but that is a different discussion.


I am not sure where you got your evidence that the brightest youngsters want to be vets and not doctors from because they can make more money. I would hope and believe that the amount of money that people could make is simply one possible factor in decisions about entering any medical profession, whether for humans or for animals. I'd hope that all of these "bright young people" actually want to do some good and to care for those who need it, and that is the primary reason for choosing their career. Until I see evidence otherwise, I think I'll err on giving them the benefit of the doubt. But on doing a quick google, whilst it may be true that some junior doctors just starting out do not command the same salaries as newly qualified vets seem to, over their career it appears that those who rise through the ranks as doctors, or have seniority, are actually paid more than the average vet with the comparable experience.


If there is any stranglehold going on - human or animal - it is the pharmaceutical companies that you need to look to. Isn't it amazing how fast they have managed to come up with medicines for Ebola and other "untreatable" conditions when western countries felt threatened, but there was little or no progress made when the diseases only affected poor people in developing countries. There's even now a debate about the possibility of eradicating the malarial / virus carrying mosquitoes now that the US is threatened, something that wasn't even on the cards when it was African and Asian people who were the main victims, and the poor people at that. The profits of pharmaceutical companies are an interesting read - and the same companies hold the patents on both human and animal medicines.

Petra_70

Not buying any of that. ^^^ Same with dentists. Rip off merchants who have you by the short and curlies.

krlyr

sangie595 wrote: »

Although there is a cost to the prescription, it still worked out cheaper - and my dog is insured anyway, so you could say that the only people I saved money for was the insurer.

Yes and no - if you hit your insurance limit and still need to pay out for what would otherwise have been claimable treatment, you're then out of pocket. If you can save a few quid here and there, it leaves more of your limit to use up within your policy year. Of course, if you fall under your limit, then yes, it's not cost or saved you any different in terms of transactionally - but it will contribute overall to insurance premiums rising over time (the more it costs the insurers, the more they have to charge to make a profit)