Non Refundable Deposits

worth1g

Hi, I am after some advice on non refundable deposits.
Here is a brief background as i could be here all day if i go into full details.
1st June 2015 - we pay £2000 deposit for a wedding venue. The reciept says this is a "deposit" it does not mention it is non refundable.
On the bottom of the receipt it states the following:
casncellation charges must be notified by post or email.
less than 180 days - deposit
less than 90 days - deposit + 25% of quoted price
Less than 30 days - deposit + 50% of quoted price
less than 15 days - full quoted price.

This indicates that if we cancel with more than 180 days we will get our deposit back. At the time of paying we were not told that the deposit is non refundable. A week later we then signed a contract with the venue (which we had not seen at the time of paying) and this states the deposit is non refundable. We did not question this.

Since this we have cancelled by email with more than 180 days notice. This is because at the time of paying we were told they had a wedding licence but we found out they did not. So we could not get married there like they told us we could. They have since got a licence but at the time of booking did not and we feel they mis sold.

My question is more about the deposit. Under the circumstances should they give it us back as they are refusing.
Thank you.

unholyangel

Its kind of a complex situation. Usually when t&c's say nothing on the matter, then it falls back on common law. In common law, where one party breaches a contract they are liable for reasonable losses incurred by the other party due to their breach. However, they also have a statutory duty to mitigate their losses.

The unfair contract terms guidance may be of interest to you:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/284426/oft311.pdf

4.3 Where customers cancel without any such justification, and the supplier
suffers loss as a result, they cannot expect a full refund of all
prepayments. But a term under which they always lose everything they
have paid in advance, regardless of the amount of any costs and losses caused by the cancellation, is at clear risk of being considered an unfair
penalty – see Group 5.

4.5 A way to improve the fairness of such a term is to ensure that it does not
go beyond the ordinary legal position. Where cancellation is the fault of the
consumer, the business is entitled to hold back from any refund of
prepayments what is likely to be reasonably needed to cover his net costs
or the net loss of profit resulting directly from the default.18 There is no
entitlement to any sum that could reasonably be saved by, for example,
finding another customer.

4.6 Alternatively, the prepayment may be set low enough that it merely reflects
the ordinary expenses necessarily entailed for the supplier. A genuine
'deposit'– which is a reservation fee not an advance payment – can quite
legitimately be kept in full, as payment for the reservation. But of course
such a deposit will not normally be more than a small percentage of the
price, otherwise it is liable to be seen as a disguised penalty (see paragraph
5.8).

5.1 It is unfair to impose disproportionate sanctions for breach of contract. A
requirement to pay more in compensation for a breach than a reasonable
pre-estimate of the loss caused to the supplier is one kind of excessive
penalty. Such a requirement will, in any case, normally be void to the
extent that it amounts to a penalty under English common law. Other types
of disproportionate sanction are considered below – Part III, Group 18(c).

5.3 Other kinds of penal provisions which may be unfair are damages and costs
clauses saying that the supplier can:
• claim all his costs and expenses, not just his net costs
• claim both his costs and his loss of profit where this would lead to
being compensated twice over for the same loss
• claim his legal costs on an 'indemnity' basis that is, all costs, not just
costs reasonably incurred. The words 'indemnity' and 'indemnify' are
also objectionable as legal jargon – see below, Part IV, Group 19(b).

5.4 Potentially excessive penalties. A penalty that states a fixed or minimum
sum, to be paid in all cases, will be open to challenge if the sum could be
too high in some cases.

baza52

worth1g wrote: »

Hi, I am after some advice on non refundable deposits.
Here is a brief background as i could be here all day if i go into full details.
1st June 2015 - we pay £2000 deposit for a wedding venue. The reciept says this is a "deposit" it does not mention it is non refundable.
On the bottom of the receipt it states the following:
casncellation charges must be notified by post or email.
less than 180 days - deposit
less than 90 days - deposit + 25% of quoted price
Less than 30 days - deposit + 50% of quoted price
less than 15 days - full quoted price.

This indicates that if we cancel with more than 180 days we will get our deposit back. At the time of paying we were not told that the deposit is non refundable. A week later we then signed a contract with the venue (which we had not seen at the time of paying) and this states the deposit is non refundable. We did not question this.

Since this we have cancelled by email with more than 180 days notice. This is because at the time of paying we were told they had a wedding licence but we found out they did not. So we could not get married there like they told us we could. They have since got a licence but at the time of booking did not and we feel they mis sold.

My question is more about the deposit. Under the circumstances should they give it us back as they are refusing.
Thank you.

I read that as
less than 180 days -lose deposit
less than 90 days -pay deposit + 25% of quoted price
Less than 30 days -pay deposit + 50% of quoted price
less than 15 days -pay full quoted price.

bris

It doesn't really matter what they say, deposits are all about mitigating losses.


If they can re book the event and get the same price then there is no loss meaning by law you get all your deposit back less any expenses such as re advertising if any.


If they can't re let then you are liable for all their losses on the day in question.


If your having problems getting through to them leave it a bit and keep getting people to check if the date is available, when it's not take them to the small claims court for the deposit. The courts will then make them list all the relevant financial data on the date in question.


You will be awarded the difference of what you paid and what they should have made, anything over this is considered a penalty which they can not impose.

Poppie68

baza52 wrote: »

I read that as
less than 180 days -lose deposit
less than 90 days -pay deposit + 25% of quoted price
Less than 30 days -pay deposit + 50% of quoted price
less than 15 days -pay full quoted price.

That's how I read it....


Op if they now have the licence in place your getting what you asked and paid for..You have booked a civil ceremony and reception and that's what you will get so I struggle to see where you have been mis-sold anything.

burlington6

baza52 wrote: »

I read that as
less than 180 days -lose deposit
less than 90 days -pay deposit + 25% of quoted price
Less than 30 days -pay deposit + 50% of quoted price
less than 15 days -pay full quoted price.

That's how I read it too

bod1467

Poppie68 wrote: »

That's how I read it....


Op if they now have the licence in place your getting what you asked and paid for..You have booked a civil ceremony and reception and that's what you will get so I struggle to see where you have been mis-sold anything.

Depends on whether the license was in place at the time of cancellation. At the time of booking the venue was unable to fulfil the contract as sold therefore it was mis-sold ... unless they made it clear at the time of booking they had no such license but it was forthcoming.

Poppie68

bod1467 wrote: »

Depends on whether the license was in place at the time of cancellation. At the time of booking the venue was unable to fulfil the contract as sold therefore it was mis-sold ... unless they made it clear at the time of booking they had no such license but it was forthcoming.

They may of had one previous which had lapsed, name change or it just hadn't been formalised....I would think they were 100% confident of the licence if they were willing to take bookings otherwise they would be massively out of pocket if they thought there was any chance of weddings being cancelled.
If it's in place now then everything is as it should be and would surely be easier just leaving it in place?

unholyangel

baza52 wrote: »

I read that as
less than 180 days -lose deposit
less than 90 days -pay deposit + 25% of quoted price
Less than 30 days -pay deposit + 50% of quoted price
less than 15 days -pay full quoted price.

I'm still trying to work out what the point of your post is tbh (no offence intended btw, i'm genuinely puzzled). The only thing I can think of is that you think the above terms covers the OP's situation - which it does not.

In order to cover OP's situation, it would have to be drafted as:
More than 90 days: deposit
Less than 90 days: deposit + 25%
Less than 30 days: deposit + 50%
Less than 15 days: full contract price

ETA: I'm going to take a guess you have misread OP's post and think OP thinks if he cancels within 180 days, he gets his deposit back. OP cancelled with more than 180 days notice and that is why they think they're due the deposit back.

worth1g

Thanks all for the replies.
My point is this.
When we paid the money we were not told that the deposit was non refundable. The receipt makes it clear that if we cancel with more than 180 days then we should get the money back. They are refusing the money back.
Also we were told at the time of booking to go and book a registrar, something that we we tried to do was impossible because it was not licenced. It was also not licenced when we cancelled nor has it ever had a licence in the past.
As far as i can see, they should be paying my deposit back.....

agrinnall

baza52 wrote: »

I read that as
less than 180 days -lose deposit
less than 90 days -pay deposit + 25% of quoted price
Less than 30 days -pay deposit + 50% of quoted price
less than 15 days -pay full quoted price.

I don't think anybody is disagreeing with your analysis, just wondering what the point of it is as the OP has cancelled with more than 180 days notice, so none of these circumstances apply.