Appealing TDS decision re cleaning charges in courts

FBaby

pumen wrote: »

This is not true. I am a tenant with very good evidence and a very detailed argument. I am overcharged GBP 500 for a very clean flat which was left in a better condition vs. the start of the tenancy. TDS was really a joke.

What evidence it is that you provided though and how did you make your point?

He also totally ignores a clause in the tenancy agreement which states that unless the agent/LL provide a breakdown of deductions within 14 days, the tenant will not accept them.

Did you actually point to that clause or did you just give a copy of the agreement?

Remember that the rule is that it not for the tenant to make a case that no money should be withhold, but for the landlord to make a strong case that they had a right to withdraw it.

If they've said that the check in pictures showed curtains that were perfectly clean but then provided pictures that showed they were very dirty, even if you're the one who provided the evidence, then they don't really need to look at your evidence. The fact that you employed someone to clean is irrelevant because after all, the cleaner who claimed to have washed the curtains could have instead used them to clean the bath tube (only making a point, I'm sure they didn't!).

Although you cannot appeal the decision, I know someone who filed a complaint and had the decision of the adjudicator overturned (after agreeing for it to be reviewed by a different one). However, they had a very strong case by which they could prove that the adjudicator had not considered some clearly identified evidence and misinterpreted other. They complained on the basis that the adjudicator had not followed the procedures by which they were bound to. To be fair, I read the file, and for someone who had not legal background, it was quite impressive. I think they were on a mission! They were the landlord though (Nevertheless the rationale would be the same either way I would think).

pumen

FBaby wrote: »

What evidence it is that you provided though and how did you make your point?



Did you actually point to that clause or did you just give a copy of the agreement?

Remember that the rule is that it not for the tenant to make a case that no money should be withhold, but for the landlord to make a strong case that they had a right to withdraw it.

If they've said that the check in pictures showed curtains that were perfectly clean but then provided pictures that showed they were very dirty, even if you're the one who provided the evidence, then they don't really need to look at your evidence. The fact that you employed someone to clean is irrelevant because after all, the cleaner who claimed to have washed the curtains could have instead used them to clean the bath tube (only making a point, I'm sure they didn't!).

Although you cannot appeal the decision, I know someone who filed a complaint and had the decision of the adjudicator overturned (after agreeing for it to be reviewed by a different one). However, they had a very strong case by which they could prove that the adjudicator had not considered some clearly identified evidence and misinterpreted other. They complained on the basis that the adjudicator had not followed the procedures by which they were bound to. To be fair, I read the file, and for someone who had not legal background, it was quite impressive. I think they were on a mission! They were the landlord though (Nevertheless the rationale would be the same either way I would think).

Thanks. This is inspiring, but I do not believe the TDS will overrule their own decision. Their complaint mechanism is a joke and they clearly state that you cannot appeal their decision. I am not sure whether this is legal or not, but I assume they have good lawyers, so should be legal.


In terms of the clause, of course I referred to it in my argument and the adjudicator simply ignored it. There is nothing in his report about this. If this clause cannot be enforced and is irrelevant, I at least expected the adjudicator to comment on this.


I have filed a complaint with TDS. Will see what their response will be, but I expect a standard template-type response with no action.


In my case, court appeal is the only option. I realise that the chances are very slim as there is TDS decision which the agent will refer to. However, I have nothing to lose (expect for the court fee of GBP 50) and the amount of GBP 500 is a lot, so this is matter of principle for me as I really feel that the decision is not fair and the adjudicator missed critical pieces of the evidence which I supplied. I already served a notice today to the landlord, but realise that they will not care as they have TDS decision and TDS has already transferred the money today.


I did not have a very good feeling about TDS in the very beginning as when I started filing the dispute, I quickly realised that the whole system is made for the landlords, not the tenant. Even the filing form is not really suitable for the tenant. It is my fault that I followed the advice and proceeded with the arbitration rather than courts.

pumen

bouicca21 wrote: »

It seems to me that there is a difference between proving that cleaning property/washing curtains was done, and proving that the standard of cleanliness was the same as when you moved in.

Well, I agree. However, tell me this:


- the check in report and schedule of condition indicates that the cleaning is rated by the independent inventory company as domestic and notes many cleaning omissions. The agent provides an invoice for the cleaning. There are no pictures.


- the check out report and schedule of condition indicates that the cleaning is rated by the independent inventory company as generally good , but domestic and notes some cleaning omissions (which are all controversial). I provide the invoice for professional cleaning. I provide pictures of a flat which is clearly clean.


Yet, the adjudicator awards total amount claimed for cleaning, which basically is sufficient to undertake another professional cleaning.


The check out report says nothing about not clean curtains. The agent does not provide pictures that the curtains are dirty at the end of the tenancy, only the receipt that they paid for the dry cleaning at the start of the tenancy and claims that curtains are not clean... I provide the pictures of the curtains and a receipt that they have been professionally washed. The adjudicator awards full amount to the agent.


Yes, I cannot understand how this can happen as the agency's evidence, in my opinion, is not strong and the amount awarded is not justified. Therefore, I suspect there might be some side-agreement between the agency (this is a family run agency with very bad reputation) and some adjudicators who screw tenants and share the stolen money. I do not have any other explanation. I know this sounds shocking, but ... why can't this happen?

FBaby

Their complaint mechanism is a joke and they clearly state that you cannot appeal their decision. I am not sure whether this is legal or not, but I assume they have good lawyers, so should be legal.

Firstly, you need to understand that appealing and complaining are not the same. You indeed can't appeal the decision, ie. can't expect them to reconsider their decision because you don't agree with it. Complaining is about the service though and making a point that they, as an organisation, have not operated under their rules and conditions.

What is the basis of your complaint?
From what you've writen, I can't see a strong case though.

the check in report and schedule of condition indicates that the cleaning is rated by the independent inventory company as domestic and notes many cleaning omissions. The agent provides an invoice for the cleaning. There are no pictures.

You say it was rated, rated what? Also, how can it be domestic if they got an invoice for it?

- the check out report and schedule of condition indicates that the cleaning is rated by the independent inventory company as generally good , but domestic and notes some cleaning omissions (which are all controversial). I provide the invoice for professional cleaning. I provide pictures of a flat which is clear

Generally good is not very good everywhere. If it was rated very good in the check in inventory, then that could explain the decision.

I provide the pictures of the curtains and a receipt that they have been professionally washed. The adjudicator awards full amount to the agent.

This one is odd as surely that should indeed be an indication that they were in the same condition than they were. Did they doubt the authenticity of your receipt? Or that the date of it was months before the end of tenancy.

However vague you believe the arguments that went against your case are, what were they? My advice would be to get views on these as this is all what it will come down to, whether as part of the complaint procedure, or in court.

Pixie5740

TDS and the other deposits schemes do not have some sideline agreement with landlords and letting agencies. They are independent. I'm sure I read somewhere that only in about 6% of cases landlords win the full amount of the deduction and in about 50% of cases they are awarded nothing at all.

I don't really fancy your chances at court. The onus was on the LL/LA to prove that in the balance of probabilities the deductions were reasonable to the adjudicator which they have done. If you go to court and lose, which given the other side has the adjudicator's verdict finding in their favour, is a decent possibility you'll end up paying your court costs as well as theirs.

However, if you really want to go to court then file your claim online and go for it rather than continuing to make your case with us. We can't get your £500 or definitively tell you which way a judgement will go. Do tell us how you get on though.

pumen

Pixie5740 wrote: »

TDS and the other deposits schemes do not have some sideline agreement with landlords and letting agencies. They are independent. I'm sure I read somewhere that only in about 6% of cases landlords win the full amount of the deduction and in about 50% of cases they are awarded nothing at all.

I don't really fancy your chances at court. The onus was on the LL/LA to prove that in the balance of probabilities the deductions were reasonable to the adjudicator which they have done. If you go to court and lose, which given the other side has the adjudicator's verdict finding in their favour, is a decent possibility you'll end up paying your court costs as well as theirs.

However, if you really want to go to court then file your claim online and go for it rather than continuing to make your case with us. We can't get your £500 or definitively tell you which way a judgement will go. Do tell us how you get on though.

I am just sharing my experience and warning others to be very careful with TdS as they ignore evidence, are unpredictable and unreasonable and there is no way to appeal

pumen

FBaby wrote: »

Firstly, you need to understand that appealing and complaining are not the same. You indeed can't appeal the decision, ie. can't expect them to reconsider their decision because you don't agree with it. Complaining is about the service though and making a point that they, as an organisation, have not operated under their rules and conditions.

What is the basis of your complaint?
From what you've writen, I can't see a strong case though.

You say it was rated, rated what? Also, how can it be domestic if they got an invoice for it?

Generally good is not very good everywhere. If it was rated very good in the check in inventory, then that could explain the decision.


This one is odd as surely that should indeed be an indication that they were in the same condition than they were. Did they doubt the authenticity of your receipt? Or that the date of it was months before the end of tenancy.

However vague you believe the arguments that went against your case are, what were they? My advice would be to get views on these as this is all what it will come down to, whether as part of the complaint procedure, or in court.

They didn't doubt authenticity of the receipt- the adjudicator simply ignored it. He says nothing about this.

agrinnall

pumen wrote: »

They didn't doubt authenticity of the receipt- the adjudicator simply ignored it. He says nothing about this.

You keep saying this but we have no way to know if it's true, so let's see what the court has to say - I hope you come back to conclude the thread whatever the result.

FBaby

pumen wrote: »

They didn't doubt authenticity of the receipt- the adjudicator simply ignored it. He says nothing about this.

So what does he say? You state what he hasn't read, hasn't considered, but haven't written anything about evidence he did consider and what led him to the conclusion he made.

pumen

OK. I complained about the decision with TDS. The whole complaint mechanism process is a joke. I received a response from a so-called independent person who reviewed the case, agreed there were major omissions with the decision, yet upheld the decision and refunded GBP 75 out of TDS budget for "my stress and time". What a disgrace. She also stated that the communication with TDS is now finished (i.e. they will not respond or consider any complaints to this case) and I cannot appeal to the court as I agreed to give up my rights when I raised TDS dispute. What a joke!