and the biggest threat to the UK economy in 2016 is...

tkane

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

My objective is much higher immigration.

A million a year or more.



I agree.

Simply build more houses and they can.

Hamish I'm with you all the way on house prices, but the EU is an evil organisation which has very quickly accumulated all sorts of competencies and is rapidly governing all aspects of our lives without you even realising it.

The speed at which the EU is gaining power has to be halted and we must be given the power to determine the exact number of people who cross our borders. Without this I'm afaird we will be swallowed up in the EU project and there will be no turning back.

The United Kingdom will be lost. In 100 years time there will just be one European super state.

Moby

tkane wrote: »

Hamish I'm with you all the way on house prices, but the EU is an evil organisation which has very quickly accumulated all sorts of competencies and is rapidly governing all aspects of our lives without you even realising it.

The speed at which the EU is gaining power has to be halted and we must be given the power to determine the exact number of people who cross our borders. Without this I'm afaird we will be swallowed up in the EU project and there will be no turning back.

The United Kingdom will be lost. In 100 years time there will just be one European super state.

Some of us believe that national boundaries are passe and the inevitable move will be towards reducing borders....present refugee problems aside of course. It's inevitable long term. The little Englanders are crying for a past that doesn't exist anymore.

kabayiri

Moby wrote: »

Some of us believe that national boundaries are passe and the inevitable move will be towards reducing borders....present refugee problems aside of course. It's inevitable long term. The little Englanders are crying for a past that doesn't exist anymore.

Tell that to those Eastern European states erecting fences this year.

The refugee crisis will only result in more protectionism. Another million refugees next year will sink Merkel's dream of harmonious living.

CLAPTON

Moby wrote: »

Some of us believe that national boundaries are passe and the inevitable move will be towards reducing borders....present refugee problems aside of course. It's inevitable long term. The little Englanders are crying for a past that doesn't exist anymore.

You don't act on your 'principles' or beliefs; just as you close your eyes to the IRA supporters Corbyn, McDonnel and Abbott.

You talk the talk but don't act.

A removal of national boundaries would inevitably mean a huge relocation of people from poor countries to rich countries.
It would mean your own income would fall by 80% or more.
It would inevitable mean global conflict with 10s maybe 100s of millions dead.
You may be right about the long term : a military dictatorship might rise from the ashes with no opponents:

Personally I prefer a plurality of political systems and cultures where people can influence their own lives : but I accept that the far left still have other dreams.

Why do you wish such harm to ordinary people?

Sapphire

kabayiri wrote: »

Tell that to those Eastern European states erecting fences this year.

The refugee crisis will only result in more protectionism. Another million refugees next year will sink Merkel's dream of harmonious living.

Yes – one has to look at EU, sovereignty and Merkel's actions over Muslim migrants from the perspective of other countries apart from Britain. I was talking to Poles who live in Poland recently, and who lived through the German occupation in places like Warsaw. They are really concerned about Germany wanting to regain the lands that were taken away from them when Poland's borders were moved after the war – and indeed, I have heard it expressed by Germans that they want these lands. They are also buying properties and land in Poland, which is a way of regaining the land by stealth.

I talked to someone in Gdansk about a month ago. This was a 'free' city in Poland, yet before the Second World War, Germany sent many citizens to live there so there was a huge German population in it. Going there and seeing how many Germans visited the city brought home to me the dangers of the EU/Merkel vis a vis countries like Poland.

The Poles also don't want migrants from Muslim countries forced on them – they aren't culturally prepared for it, have never had any links to such countries (well, apart having had to protect Europe from Ottoman invasion under Sobieski), and have enough burdens to cope with without having yet another invasion forced upon them. If the influx of illegal immigrants is not stopped, I can see the EU breaking up.

Looking at the EU project in its entirety (and not just from the point of view of, for example, a little Englander's vested interest in profiteering as much as possible due to migration, e.g. from property), it is clearly dysfunctional at the very least, and the way it is going it could cause great strife and danger in Europe.

mwpt

tkane wrote: »

Hamish I'm with you all the way on house prices, but the EU is an evil organisation which has very quickly accumulated all sorts of competencies and is rapidly governing all aspects of our lives without you even realising it.

Evil? By what standard? No reasonable standard that I could imagine. Evil is communities being slaughtered in Africa or the Middle East for being the wrong religion, or tribe.

The speed at which the EU is gaining power has to be halted

Why?

and we must be given the power to determine the exact number of people who cross our borders. Without this I'm afaird we will be swallowed up in the EU project and there will be no turning back.

The United Kingdom will be lost. In 100 years time there will just be one European super state.

And so? What makes the UK so special? We're all citizens of this world, no single being is worth less than you are. Countries are not a physical law, they're not permanent. They formed at some point, they'll dissolve at some point. I wish I could live to see post scarcity where this will almost certainly happen and patriotism could be consigned to the same embarrassing place as misogyny, homophobia, etc.

globalds

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

The EU has been immensely positive for the UK and indeed for all of Europe. The biggest factor by far in avoiding another great war in Europe, and responsible for economic progress and favourable trade terms we simply could not have achieved by ourselves, not to mention numerous other cultural and standard of living benefits.

Who is that paragraph targeted at ?
I have read my fair share of articles and threads on our membership of the EU .

And at no point ...Not one single mention have I seen anyone put forward an argument to end the EU ?

The UK might punch above it's weight ..But i am pretty sure whatever the outcome of our referendum ..The EU will sail along in some form or another.

Sometimes Hamish your rhetoric is shameful.

Sapphire

mwpt wrote: »

And so? What makes the UK so special? We're all citizens of this world, no single being is worth less than you are. Countries are not a physical law, they're not permanent. They formed at some point, they'll dissolve at some point. I wish I could live to see post scarcity where this will almost certainly happen and patriotism could be consigned to the same embarrassing place as misogyny, homophobia, etc.

Don't worry – if you have your way, the EU will become one big state ruled by Germany, and sod the histories of the various European nations and the incredible achievements they have painstakingly built up over the years (they have their faults, but they are a great deal better than existed before, or that exists in other parts of the world). Then you'll see it fragment into new tribes and nations – especially if Merkel has her way and swamps the continent with Muslims, Africans and other non-European people – and the whole area will have a fine time with huge strife and sectarian and religious wars, complete with extreme homophobia and misogyny, for obvious reasons.

You may not care about your own nation – luckily, many people (often those who have lost a lot in the past and thus appreciate what their nation means to them) have different ideas and care passionately about theirs.

As to 'post scarcity' – dream on. What will happen in the world with the massive uncontrolled population growth and dwindling resources is that 'scarcity' will become greater and more people (not fewer) will become affected by it. There will also be fewer and fewer jobs due to many of them being done by robots and computers (which are much less trouble to employers than irksome employees who want to be paid). This is already happening. Even you can surely see what the outcome of such a situation will be.

System

Me perhaps?

Leaving the EU wouldn't be in the national interest, but it would be in my interest, as I'd get higher future wages, so I'll vote to leave

Like gov spending isn't in the national interest, but it is in mine

Sapphire

Wake_up_call wrote: »

I have thought long and hard about this matter. I have also read numerous books on the EU.
I will vote to leave and here's why:

The EU has morphed into something that no British person ever voted for. When we joined the EEC in 1975, we believed we were getting no more than a common market. However, what we have got instead is an undemocratic organisation that has overseen so much corruption it makes the bigwigs at FIFA look like saints.

This is an organisation that is increasingly pushing our nation towards becoming a mere outpost in United States of Europe. It is not a free trade body, it's federalism by stealth.

Today, between 50 and 75 per cent of all UK laws involve Brussels and that trend shows no signs of changing, particularly has the Labour party waved our right to veto more than 40 areas of public policy prior to the Lisbon Treaty.

These included crime prevention incentives, areas of criminal law, emergency international aid, self-employment rights, asylum, border controls, tourism and transport.

You may believe that continental Europe is better because of the EU, but that merely suggests you have been taken in by its clever use of spin. In fact, Eurobarometer research shows that trust in the EU is in steep decline across the continent and you only have to look at election results to see that anti-EU parties are growing in prominence.

EU is a very expensive and undemocratic club. While we have MEPs, they wield no power as the unelected bureaucrats in the EU Commission make all the big decisions. It costs upwards of £55 million a day to stay in this corrupt club and we receive less than half of that money back.

Much of the money the EU receives is wasted on vanity projects, overseas junkets, modern and unnecessary buildings and the huge cost of moving the parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg once a month.

This is an organisation has a bigger advertising budget than Coca Cola and cons people into thinking it is doing good work in their area by funding white elephant projects, many of which fall apart after a few years and cost the host nation's government further costs to maintain (read about Portugal).

A few other things to consider. 1) EU's working time directive has cost the NHS over £1 billion. 2) Its Common Fisheries Policy has put thousands of people out of work and cost the UK £2.8 billion. 3) TTIP is coming and will cause further privatisation of the NHS 4) Food is 17 per cent more expensive because of the EU.

1400 people lost their jobs from Ford's Dagenham plant in 2012 because the EU funded grants that enabled Ford to shift its operations to cheaper plants overseas. Ford moved its Southampton operation to Turkey (which isn't even in the EU…yet) with the help of an £80 million lump sum from the EU's Investment Bank.

In 2007, Peugeot closed its Ryton factory and moved production to Slovakia using EU money, resulting in 5,000 jobs losses at the plant and at suppliers.

Whichever way you cut it, the EU costs our nation a shed-load of money and all we get back is more laws and further strain on our services. The EU would be great if it was nothing more than a trading block.

Thankfully, we will soon have a chance to leave this bleak alliance and go out into a growing world where we can broker our own trade deals with growing nations rather than be shackled by an organisation that is in decline. That does not mean we won't trade with the EU. Of course we will as our current trade deficit means the EU needs our trade and is in no position not to offer us an EFTA agreement like the one it has with Switzerland.

This will allow us to maintain relations with our neighbours, get the deal we thought we were getting in 1975, cut our costs by 80 per cent, grow our economy by brokering deals with growing nations such as India, and control our own laws.
Today 12:38 PM

Just to say thank you for the thoughtful and well-written post. All the issues that have arisen in the last year have actually focused my mind and made me find out more about the EU, the way it functions and its purpose. Naively, until I did this I regarded the EU as largely benign and principally operating in the area of trade. What I've found out during the course of the part year has frankly horrified me – and I will definitely vote to leave.