G24 again - no receipts, appeal refused

IH8G24

Hi all,

I've been lurking the advice threads since I got my PCN, and it appears I'm at the point where it is recommended that I start a new thread.

So, the charge is from G24 (yes them again!) and it's the usual £70 for parking in a retail park on 21st November. I didn't actually buy anything in the retail park so I have no receipts, so I followed the advice and sent this appeal:

Opening paragraph, "this is an appeal..." etc

It is the registered keeper's assertion that:
1. The signage does not conform to the IPC Code of Practice, to which G24 has committed
2. There exists no contract between the registered keeper and G24
3. G24 has no authority to issue charges over the land in question
4. There will be no admission as to the identity of the driver, and no assumptions can be drawn.

As such the charge is rejected. You should now cancel this charge and remove all details of this vehicle from your records.

I have retained proof of this appeal. Any further correspondence other than confirmation of cancellation will be considered harassment and could result in legal action being taken against you.

Yours sincerely

IH8G24

Here is G24's reply:

Dear IH8G24,

Thank you for your recent correspondence.

We respond as follows:

1. In relation to your suggestion that your parking charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss we confirmed we have obtained legal advice in this regard and have been advised that not only can our parking charges be justified on the basis that they are in line with the Independent Parking Committee's guidelines, and that they are likely to amount to liquidated damages (where the issue of pre-estimate of loss is not relevant). This is because the Court's position is that where the parties agree to a contract - which is the basis of the contract detailed on our signage - a sum stipulated this way (particularly in circumstances where there is difficulty in calculating a precise estimation) is classed as liquidated damages. Either way, our parking charges are fully enforceable and no [sic] not amount to a "penalty". You should also be aware that in accordance with the case of Robophone Facilities v Blank the onus of proving that an amount claimed is a penalty, rather than liquidated damages, is upon you (as the party against whom the parking charge is claimed);

2. If you believe this decision is incorrect, you are entitled to appeal to the Independent Appeals Service (IAS). In order to appeal the IAS will need your parking charge number, your vehicle registration and the date the charge was originally issued. Appeals must be submitted to the IAS within 21 days of the date of this letter. Please visit [link removed] for full details.

3. Again, you do not specify in which way you allege we not [sic] have authority to issue charges over the land where the car park is located. However, we can assure you that the parking management at the car park where you have received a parking charge has been contracted to us. Again, we are able to confirm that we have been successfully audited by an independent assessor on behalf of the Independent Parking Committee.

If you can provide proof of your claim either through supply of receipts, banks [sic] statements (with your private details erased) or letters of authority for the day in question, within 14 days. On receipt, G24 Ltd as a gesture of goodwill may re-consider your appeal.

As we have extensively investigated this Contractual Parking Charge Notice and provided you with the results of our investigation, no further investigation will be undertaken. Any further correspondence will not receive a response, the options below are still open to you.

You now have one of the following options available to you:

1. Pay the outstanding Parking Charge. Payment of your Contractual Parking Charge Notice can be made via the payment line: 0333 733 3000 or by sending a cheque or postal order to G24 Limited, PO Box 3320, Gerrards Cross, Buckinghamshire, SL9 8WT.

2. If you believe this decision is incorrect, you are entitled to appeal to The Independent Appeals Service [link removed], The Independent Appeals Service provides an Alternative Dispute Resolution scheme for disputes of this type. As you have complied with our internal appeals procedure you may use, and we will engage with, the [sic] The Independent Appeals Service Standard Appeals Service providing you lodge an appeal to them within 21 days of this rejection.

3. If you choose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our debt recovery procedures and may proceed with Court action against you.

4. Supply copies of your receipts for the day in question or your bank statement with your private details erased showing the transaction(s) on our client's site within 14 days. As a gesture of goodwill we may re-evaluate your appeal. Please do not send in original documents as they will not be returned.

Yours Faithfully

G24 Ltd

So what happens now? Everyone's saying they don't take people to court, so I can probably just ignore their letters until the unlikely event that I get court papers. But what happens if I do? Can i quickly try to settle for the original amount if it gets to that?

Is there anything in the fact that they did not address my bullet points 1 & 4? As for my complaint about the signage. it says in the IPC's Code of Practice:
Where the basis of your parking charges is based in the law of contract which will usually be by way of the driver of a vehicle agreeing to contractual terms identified by signage in and around a controlled zone.
The car park in question is a 2 hour stay, and there is an adjacent car park which has a max stay of 3 hours. There is a sign stating 3 hours around this car park. There is also a sign at the entrance, which is split in half, saying 2 hours and 3 hours, with arrows pointing in different directions.

I've done a couple of illustrations to show what I mean. As a new user it won't let me post with links, but I hope the mods will appreciate that I'm not a spammer so I'm going to post the links with a couple of spaces in, because I think that it will be helpful.

This is what the signs look like:
i.imgur. com/ mHlABJC.png

and this is where they are in relation to the car parks:
i.imgur. com/ FivvIqQ.png

There might be nothing in it but I thought it's worth mentioning, seeing as I have very little else to cling to. The signage is also coloured a faint green, on a white background, which could be argued is hard to read. I don't think the signs are illuminated at night, which could have been a fair argument if my PCN didn't relate to an early afternoon offence.

Also, if it did have to go to court, would they have to prove that I was the driver?

I guess my next step would be to complain to some of the on-site retailers? I can only write to one of them really, because it might look dodgy if G24 get letters from several shops, defending their loyal customer? Who would be best to write to, out of these:
99p Stores
Boots
Brantano
Burger King
GAP
Hobbycraft
Mothercare
Next
Outfit
Sports Direct
TK Maxx

Any comments or advice welcomed! Thanks for reading :T

The_Deep

Write to them all. They are all affected when a PPC upsets their customers


Also, did their paperwork mention v.a.t.? If not thay may be trying to evade it.


If, as they claim, this is contractual charge, it is a fee for parking, and thus vatable.


Ask them for a vat invoice. If they ignore your request, (which they probably will), it is a useful stick with which to beat them if it ever gets to court.


More reading here


https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5033796=

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5195437

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5087925=

If you suspect tax evasion report it to the fraud hot line here

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5087925&highlight

Ralph-y

http://i.imgur.com/mHlABJC.png

http://i.imgur.com/FivvIqQ.png

please post up actual pictures of the signage ......


"Who would be best to write to, out of these:"

I would write to any that you, use / have used or would use.

happy xmas

and

good luck

Ralph:cool:

Coupon-mad

Any except Sports Direct!

G24 are not known for court but keep all letters in case they break the habit of a lifetime. More likely, debt collector letters to ignore:

https://bmpa.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/203549442-G24-Ltd

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=103117

Look how many cases G24 have had in court, LOL:

http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/G24.html



HTH

IH8G24

Thanks to all 3 of you for your kind replies.

The_Deep wrote: »

Write to them all. They are all affected when a PPC upsets their customers

I've written to Boots, Next and TK Maxx so I'll see how I get on with those 3 first. I reckon those bigger brands would be more likely to act.

The_Deep wrote: »

Also, did their paperwork mention v.a.t.? If not thay may be trying to evade it. If, as they claim, this is contractual charge, it is a fee for parking, and thus vatable. Ask them for a vat invoice. If they ignore your request, (which they probably will), it is a useful stick with which to beat them if it ever gets to court.

It doesn't mention VAT anywhere. Surely if I ask for a VAT invoice though, it shows a willingness to pay?

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Look how many cases G24 have had in court, LOL

That makes for some pleasing reading. Do you not think though, that's because everybody ends up paying once they get the debt collector letters?

Quentin

IH8G24 wrote: »

That makes for some pleasing reading. Do you not think though, that's because everybody ends up paying once they get the debt collector letters?

Anyone who comes here after getting a debt collectors letter gets advised very strongly to ignore any and every correspondence from them.


So if they ignore the advice and pay as you suggest, then why would they bother asking for it in the first place?

Coupon-mad

IH8G24 wrote: »

T
That makes for some pleasing reading. Do you not think though, that's because everybody ends up paying once they get the debt collector letters?

Without a doubt, NO.

I've been posting here for seven or eight years and we've always explained debt collector letters mean nowt. I've ignored debt collector letters myself after my first fake PCN over six years ago and nothing happens. One would hope the majority of people aren't that stupid and can Google such things before paying!

IH8G24

Hi again everybody.

Just to update this case. I wrote to the 3 stores that I said I would, but didn't get a reply from any of them.

I've now had my final notice from G24, in which they state that I was the driver, and that the registered keeper has told them this. Seeing as I am the registered keeper, this doesn't make any sense because I didn't identify myself to them as the driver.

It says that I'm past the point of paying the discounted charge, and I now have to pay the full amount of face the wrath of their debt collectors. It also says that it's now too late for me to appeal.

So now the plan is just to keep ignoring the impending flow of letters that finds its way to my house, right?

Any other comments or advice at this stage would be appreciated, thanks.

Redx

keep IGNORING unless you get real and actual court papers from a UK court or centre , especially the main 2 of Northampton or Salford

IGNORE the drivel from G24 or any debt collectors unless you believe any to be a genuine attempt at an LBC , in which case ask for guidance on IGNORE or REFUTE

G24 have 6 years to try a court case, unlikely but never say never

ps:- same advice was given in this thread too

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5412782

another IPC member

Coupon-mad

I've now had my final notice from G24, in which they state that I was the driver, and that the registered keeper has told them this. Seeing as I am the registered keeper, this doesn't make any sense.

Actually I would reply to that to refute it; don't accept in silence, things that are untrue - if the keeper (you) has not identified the driver then say so. I would waste a second class stamp just on refuting that - and attach a copy of any proof of spending from 'the driver' if not already provided but you've said there is nothing. Send this response to G24 not to DRP, and make it clear you are the registered keeper only (you don't lie about who was driving, but you CAN leave it unsaid).

And follow up those complaints, pick up the phone and get onto the Head offices of any National chain by fairly obviously, Googling the name of the retailer and 'contact us'. Escalate the complaints, say if they can't cancel these themselves can they get onto the branch/Store Manager on your behalf to get him/her to take your complaint seriously about this scam.

Redx

good point, you would want to do this in order to show you have refuted their allegations in writing, so get a free certificate of posting at the PO when doing so, keep a copy , then if they write back with the corrected allegations and details you can ignore them unless its an LBC or court papers, providing there are no more discrepancies

the reason being that you dont want incorrect allegations to stay on file , so they may have done this deliberately but as KEEPER you refute it and nip it in the bud , although their harassment wont stop because of it, not until 6 years have elapsed anyway