Mother passed: family and funeral problems

borthers

Hello.

I'll try to keep this as concise as possible. Sorry if it's a bit of an overshare, but I'm so confused about what to do. My sister and I were estranged from our mother for 16+ years. On 7 August 2015, we found out that she had passed away from late stage liver failure.

I let her sister (our auntie) know. This is where our problems started. She turned up at the house to meet my sister. She said it was to help clear it, but she really just wanted to snoop. They had not spoken in many years. Our auntie snatched a piece of paper before demanding that we shut the door because the smell was so bad. She refused to tell us what this paper was or even show it to us. She simply said it would "pay for some of the funeral".

Our mother's house was left like something from the Life of Grime. We had someone clear it after we believe our auntie reported it to the environmental health and found out that there was no will, heavy debts (interest-only mortgage, credit cards, etc) and no plan for a funeral. My sister and I are the legal next of kin and will inherit whatever is left.

We said that we didn't want to organise a funeral because of the way she'd abused and neglected us. Our auntie took over, still refusing to give us the paperwork she'd taken.

We warned the funeral parlour and her that there was no money in her accounts and a significant amount of debt. Despite this, the auntie lied that the paperwork would "pay for the funeral" and signed the contract. We asked them for paperwork and cost breakdown of the funeral, but they didn't give it to us because she signed the paperwork. She paid no deposit.

She still refused to give us any details on this and we had to do a lot of detective work to find out that it was actually a pension. She had lied to the funeral directors to push the funeral through – even telling them that it would pay a minimum of £800 towards the costs. (It wouldn't. It was a private pension, so she deliberately misrepresented what that paper was.) Once we rumbled her and asked her to cut out all of the funeral extras, she suddenly turned on us and said that we were "just after money". She then text me to say, "we will pay for the funeral out of the policy and we will club together to make up the rest." Again, it wasn't a policy. It was a private pension and have been told it does not form part of the estate.

TL;DR: The auntie is now refusing to pay the funeral parlour despite having signed the contract.

The funeral parlour is chasing us and the house is still not sold. (And is selling for significantly less than it should due to the condition of the house.) She lied to our solicitor that she'd given us the paperwork, told the same lie to the funeral directors and is basically continuing to tell the oddest lies while also ducking their payment demand letters.

So what are our legal obligations and what are 'reasonable funeral costs'? We warned them that there should be nothing other than a cremation and they did not listen. We don't believe we should have to pay the full amount, which includes all kinds of disbursements, because we told them multiple times that there was no money and a lot of debt. To us, reasonable funeral costs cover the cremation and doctor certificate, but we're obviously not legal experts.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. My sister and I are having the worst time with all of this and don't quite know what to do.

borthers

P.S. Sorry if anything is unclear. Mind is a bit of a mess today. I will try to clear up any questions.

securityguy

It's only your problem if you want it to be. If the estate is insolvent, as it sounds like it might be, then you don't need to do anything. Your aunt signed a contract, and she's responsible for paying it. If you don't apply for letters of administration as children, then she as sister is perfectly entitled to as next in line under the rules of intestacy, or the mortgage company can administer the estate if they want. The usual advice applies: don't touch insolvent estates.

If you think that there is equity in the house sufficient to pay debts and leave enough money to make it worth your while, and you want the money (you might not, given the circumstances), then you can get letters of administration and tell your aunt to get stuffed. In that situation, you might decide to pay the funeral expenses for the sake of a quiet life.

Yorkshireman99

borthers wrote: »

Hello.

I'll try to keep this as concise as possible. Sorry if it's a bit of an overshare, but I'm so confused about what to do. My sister and I were estranged from our mother for 16+ years. On 7 August 2015, we found out that she had passed away from late stage liver failure.

I let her sister (our auntie) know. This is where our problems started. She turned up at the house to meet my sister. She said it was to help clear it, but she really just wanted to snoop. They had not spoken in many years. Our auntie snatched a piece of paper before demanding that we shut the door because the smell was so bad. She refused to tell us what this paper was or even show it to us. She simply said it would "pay for some of the funeral".

Our mother's house was left like something from the Life of Grime. We had someone clear it after we believe our auntie reported it to the environmental health and found out that there was no will, heavy debts (interest-only mortgage, credit cards, etc) and no plan for a funeral. My sister and I are the legal next of kin and will inherit whatever is left.

We said that we didn't want to organise a funeral because of the way she'd abused and neglected us. Our auntie took over, still refusing to give us the paperwork she'd taken.

We warned the funeral parlour and her that there was no money in her accounts and a significant amount of debt. Despite this, the auntie lied that the paperwork would "pay for the funeral" and signed the contract. We asked them for paperwork and cost breakdown of the funeral, but they didn't give it to us because she signed the paperwork. She paid no deposit.

She still refused to give us any details on this and we had to do a lot of detective work to find out that it was actually a pension. She had lied to the funeral directors to push the funeral through – even telling them that it would pay a minimum of £800 towards the costs. (It wouldn't. It was a private pension, so she deliberately misrepresented what that paper was.) Once we rumbled her and asked her to cut out all of the funeral extras, she suddenly turned on us and said that we were "just after money". She then text me to say, "we will pay for the funeral out of the policy and we will club together to make up the rest." Again, it wasn't a policy. It was a private pension and have been told it does not form part of the estate.

TL;DR: The auntie is now refusing to pay the funeral parlour despite having signed the contract.

The funeral parlour is chasing us and the house is still not sold. (And is selling for significantly less than it should due to the condition of the house.) She lied to our solicitor that she'd given us the paperwork, told the same lie to the funeral directors and is basically continuing to tell the oddest lies while also ducking their payment demand letters.

So what are our legal obligations and what are 'reasonable funeral costs'? We warned them that there should be nothing other than a cremation and they did not listen. We don't believe we should have to pay the full amount, which includes all kinds of disbursements, because we told them multiple times that there was no money and a lot of debt. To us, reasonable funeral costs cover the cremation and doctor certificate, but we're obviously not legal experts.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. My sister and I are having the worst time with all of this and don't quite know what to do.

You have no obligation whatsoever to pay and you should not do so. Since it sounds as if the estate may be insolvent then you would be unwise to have anything to do with the estate. It sounds harsh but it rreally is the only sensible thing to do.

heuchera

who is the executor, the auntie or you/your sister?

Keep_pedalling

heuchera wrote: »

who is the executor, the auntie or you/your sister?

There is no executor as there is no will.

The first thing the OP and their sister need to do is establish the value of the estate. If it is insolvent then walk away, if the value of the house exceeds the dept then it is worth administering the estate.

Get an estate agent to value the house, and if it's worth your while get things rolling if not hand the keys over to the mortgage provider. The funeral costs are now your aunts problem, but if there is value in the estate you will need to make sure the estate pays those costs not her.

Mojisola

Keep_pedalling wrote: »

The first thing the OP and their sister need to do is establish the value of the estate. If it is insolvent then walk away, if the value of the house exceeds the dept then it is worth administering the estate.

Get an estate agent to value the house, and if it's worth your while get things rolling if not hand the keys over to the mortgage provider. The funeral costs are now your aunts problem, but if there is value in the estate you will need to make sure the estate pays those costs not her.

Not if they refuse to deal with the estate. They don't have any obligation to pay aunt or the funeral director.

Keep_pedalling

Mojisola wrote: »

Not if they refuse to deal with the estate. They don't have any obligation to pay aunt or the funeral director.

Yes, sorry I rather assumed, they would take that on if they could actually receive a legacy from it, but in reality the hassle involved may not be worth the reward, so they could still walk away,

borthers

Thanks for all of your responses so far.

We're in the process of probate. House is selling for significantly less than market value because of the condition.

We're not sure how much will be left over. Auntie defied us on the simple cremation and totalled up funeral costs of £3200. British law states that whoever signs the contract must pay the funeral costs, but that they can claim back 'reasonable funeral costs' from the estate. We just want to know whether, if there's any money left after paying the mortgage, what would reasonable costs be? We told her there was no money and that she should have a cremation only: no service, etc. She defied us.

Would we therefore only need to reimburse her for the costs of the cremation and doctor certificate? She misled the funeral directors about that paperwork, which caused the funeral director to forego the standard deposit / downpayment. And she continues to lie and dodge them about payment.

POPPYOSCAR

Why are you even involved in this?


You were estranged from your mother, refused to organise her funeral, your aunt signed the paperwork.


Walk away.

Keep_pedalling

Ah! so walking away is no longer an option. To be honest those cost do not seem unreasonable. If there is insufficient money in the estate to pay all the unsecured debt, this is not an issue anyway as funeral costs come before the other debts. If assets exceed the debt then the additional funeral cost will eat into your inheritance, but for the sake of a few hundred pounds, fighting your aunt over this is not worth the pain that may cause.