Boundary Dispute

m0bov

As a mentioned in previous post, go out and paint them black, so that:
A They can't claim they need painting in X colour to due the condition
B It shows them who has owndership and who gets to paint them

Pop a note in the door telling them you will not be discussing the matter further.

Slinky

Nicki wrote: »

Does it help then Pricivius even if the wall can be deemed to be a party wall, that when we painted the railings last year, we did ask their permission to paint both sides of the railings, as we thought it would look odd on their side if it wasn't painted, and they not only agreed to the colour last year but also gave us access to their land to do it?

Did you put this request in writing or was it verbal? Hopefully it was verbal.

I ask my neighbours to allow us permission to maintain the back of our fence and they gave us access to their land to do it. It doesn't mean they are claiming ownership of half our fence, nor would they paint it a colour we didn't agree to either, it's not their fence. In our deeds we have a clause about allowing our neighbour on the otherside reasonable access to maintain his house wall/overhanging guttering etc where it edges our property. When they ask for permission to get access, it's not because we own their wall.

Pricivius

Nicki wrote: »

They are hinting that the railings are in the middle of the wall and the wall straddles the boundary, and so they can paint both sides of the railings (their side and ours) in the colour of their choice.

The wall on which the railing sits was built back in 2000 so I have no idea now whether or not the outer edge of the wall touched the boundary line or whether the middle of the wall does. But if they want us to demolish the wall (and therefore the railings) and move it back to where they think the boundary line is, then they'd need to provide some evidence surely that it had been built straddling the boundary line (and also wouldn't we be able to claim adverse possession in that case as it was built more than 12 years ago?)

If they were able to demonstrate to us that the wall was in the wrong place, surely the answer then would be for us just to demolish the wall and move it and the railings back to where they say the boundary line is? That would however mean also demolishing the pillar at the end of the wall, which the previous owners of our property also constructed and which is the same width as the wall, to which their very large and expensive gate is attached

There is room on the wall for two sets of railings, and we have also offered to let them put their own set of railings up on the wall and paint them whatever colour they wish, but the only thing they want is to paint the existing railings on both sides in their colour.

Nicki wrote: »

Does it help then Pricivius even if the wall can be deemed to be a party wall, that when we painted the railings last year, we did ask their permission to paint both sides of the railings, as we thought it would look odd on their side if it wasn't painted, and they not only agreed to the colour last year but also gave us access to their land to do it?

So the decision on colour last year was made jointly, but no decision can be reached this year about changing that colour as we cannot agree their suggestion, and they will not consider any other options - so does that mean the railing either stays as it is, or they need to make an application to someone for permission to change it? They can't just do so unilaterally?

I am no expert in this field so can only refer to the experience we had in what was a similar situation a few years ago. Our neighbour decided that the wall between the houses was a party wall and that it straddled the boundary line. He proposed demolition and replacement with a 6ft fence. We politely rejected the proposal on the basis that the wall was ours, that it stood on our land and that the boundary was at the face of the wall on his side. Thus began a 6-year battle which ended in the court.

Our neighbour was utterly intransigent and would not listen to reason, consider documents, discuss the matter reasonably, mediate, arbritrate or in any way handle the matter informally - he demanded we took him to Court. So we did.

We demonstrated to the Judge that the wall was ours using photographs from 25 years earlier showing part of the wall in construction, as well as key evidence from our former neighbour who owned the house for over 30 years and who happened to be a surveyor! He confirmed that the wall along the boundary was ours and that he had actually replaced part of it at his own cost at one point as he wanted a particular type of wall and had then given it to the then-owners of our house. The Judge was persuaded and we won.

So... in your situation, if you do not have evidence of where the wall sits in relation to the boundary, I would suggest you are in a difficult position as it may be the case that it straddles the boundary and sits half on their land. If it is a party wall, then my understanding is that you need to seek agreement to make any changes to it, although I do not know much about the Party Walls Act as we did not need to rely on it. I have a vague recollection that you must serve notice to amend the party wall which can be objected to and then it all gets a bit complicated...

In an ideal world, you would come to an agreement with them as to whether the wall is yours or it is a party wall and therefore where the boundary line sits. Even more ideally, you would then apply for boundary demarcation with the Land Registry so it is recorded and there can be no further debate. gather together as much evidence as you can - can you find the builders who installed the wall? previous neighbours? any further documents at the Land Registry for either house?

In your shoes, I would send a clear letter stating that it is your understanding, having considered the documentation you hold, that the wall/railings belong to you and sit entirely on your land. Accordingly, the colour of the railings is entirely your choice and is not to be altered. In any event and purely as a matter of interest, the colour of the railings is dictated by the listed nature of the properties and would require listed buildings consent from the relevant council officer. You have no intention of changing the colour as the railings were only painted last year with your neighbours' agreement and cooperation. You welcome the opportunity to discuss this further over coffee and cake and to clarify any further queries they may have. (Keeping things amicable maintains the moral high ground and will be a godsend if the matter ever escalates).

Cash-Cows

The boundary dispute is a bit of a red herring. They need listed building consent to paint it. Wait for the application to come in and then object to the application on character issues.

If they paint it without consent then planning can enforce against the works.

I cannot see how a boundary dispute helps them. Even if they win that they would still need LBC.

Ulfar

Have you looked at your deeds ?

Is the wall on the party wall line or is it just inside your boundary ? This should be easy to check by sight. Does the party wall line match the boundary line.

Why do they want to paint your side of the railing anyway ?

I have just erected a fence between my property and my neighbors, I put it just inside of my boundary to avoid any disputes. The old fence which next door is responsible for according to the deeds but which they could not afford to replace is still partially standing.

In my case it is quite clear as to where the boundary lies as it lines up with the party wall and next doors garden is stepped lower down.

It has to be said my neighbor is ecstatic as she can now take down the old scraggly fence and likes the new one. It does help that I kept her up to date with planned changes.

Whatever you do do not give in to your neighbor. Did they put in writing or email the threat of raising a boundary dispute if you didn't agree. If they did they are fools as you will be able to use this as evidence in any legal action. Courts do take a dim view of threatening behavior and vexatious claims.

I would reply in writing that the railing is yours and that you do not consent to it being repainted. I would also add that any agreed changes would also have to be done with planning consent.

Mojisola

Ulfar wrote: »

I have just erected a fence between my property and my neighbors, I put it just inside of my boundary to avoid any disputes. The old fence which next door is responsible for according to the deeds but which they could not afford to replace is still partially standing.

In my case it is quite clear as to where the boundary lies as it lines up with the party wall and next doors garden is stepped lower down.

It has to be said my neighbor is ecstatic as she can now take down the old scraggly fence and likes the new one.

Have you taken photos that show the old fence and the new fence?

Once the old fence has been down for a while, your new fence will be taken to be the boundary unless you can prove otherwise.

Don't rely on the party wall to prove where the boundary is.

Ulfar

Mojisola wrote: »

Have you taken photos that show the old fence and the new fence?

Once the old fence has been down for a while, your new fence will be taken to be the boundary unless you can prove otherwise.

Don't rely on the party wall to prove where the boundary is.

In this respect I am quite lucky in that their garden is 18 inches lower, the step down is concrete. The deeds are also very clear. There can be no dispute well unless I got a mad neighbour like the Op has, but it would be easy to clear up in court.

moneyistooshorttomention

Ulfar wrote: »

In this respect I am quite lucky in that their garden is 18 inches lower, the step down is concrete. The deeds are also very clear. There can be no dispute well unless I got a mad neighbour like the Op has, but it would be easy to clear up in court.

I'll admit to reading that with a rueful expression on my face - as there are neighbours (mine for instance) that will dispute and dispute and dispute some more even where it is absolutely blindingly obvious/clear in Deeds/etc/etc to the inch where the boundary is.

Yep...I won in the end:D - but...whew...whew...whew...and there really ARE some neighbours out there that would argue "black is white" no matter just how clear/obvious etc the boundary is and how well the Deeds also make it plain. It can be quite a battle to make the Crystal Clear facts even clearer to someone who doesn't wish to see them:cool:

Ulfar

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

I'll admit to reading that with a rueful expression on my face - as there are neighbours (mine for instance) that will dispute and dispute and dispute some more even where it is absolutely blindingly obvious/clear in Deeds/etc/etc to the inch where the boundary is.

Yep...I won in the end:D - but...whew...whew...whew...and there really ARE some neighbours out there that would argue "black is white" no matter just how clear/obvious etc the boundary is and how well the Deeds also make it plain. It can be quite a battle to make the Crystal Clear facts even clearer to someone who doesn't wish to see them:cool:

I agree some people are nuts, some won't even accept a court ruling. This is the sort of neighbour you seem to have, with this backing down is not the way to go.

I have had problems with neighbours before but as reasonable as I tried to be in the end I had to be very firm in my position. I am lucky in that I am a large chap so people don't try to intimidate me, if I wasn't I would have asked for a pcso to intervene.

moneyistooshorttomention

I didn't have to go as far as getting a court ruling against mine. I just stayed very very firm and repeating all relevant laws at them when they tried to "overstep the boundary".

I'm a little woman and that (and my not being a "local" here) were disadvantages to overcome - as they didn't seem to be taking me seriously to start with.

I think it was a combination of them realising:
- I'm pretty aware of the law
- My usual "middle class confidence" has returned gradually - now that I'm making friends/making a place in the community for myself
- They'd seen some of my new friends
- They'd realised I may be a little woman - but I will personally physically defend my property if I have to and would have been quite prepared to pick up a suitable garden implement and head for them with it if I caught them trespassing in my garden again

They were definitely trying to "isolate" me within my new community and I had that (temporary lack of) confidence level I had when I first moved here and they probably thought that was my usual level. It was realising they hadn't managed to "isolate" me and I do have that standard confidence level (as it returned gradually) that stopped them doing that trespassing eventually. It may have played a part too that one of the "locals" stood up for me against them too and I don't think they fancied tackling him LOL.