Employer but not employed

nannytone_2

i wasn't told which payroll company i should use, but was given a list of 3 or 4 different options to point me in the right direction.
i also have a 'managed account'. so that i have no access at all to the money.
they do charge, but it is factored into my bidget

Icequeen99

cattermole wrote: »

Yes the support....
LA'S have become more prescriptive that's for sure however to insist everyone uses the same payroll company is probably not legal because it is supposed to be about choice and control. It means they are telling users where to buy their payroll from.

The amount they pay to the support service for the payroll strictly speaking is part of the DP. If the user wants to use a different payroll service they should be able to do so.

The reality is most users just go alone with it.

I had to argue with them to be allowed to go it alone because for various reasons my DP budget won't be increased to cover the payroll cost.

I agree with all you say, except for the HMRC point. I disagree with that. I think if the family member also received the direct payment they would have to be employer and employee - HMRC don't have any other process to deal with it and there is nothing in tax legislation I am aware of to prevent it. Self-employment wouldn't be an option.

IQ

Icequeen99

nannytone wrote: »

i wasn't told which payroll company i should use, but was given a list of 3 or 4 different options to point me in the right direction.
i also have a 'managed account'. so that i have no access at all to the money.
they do charge, but it is factored into my bidget

Do you employ carers directly nannytone - are you the 'employer' for HMRC purposes?

IQ

cattermole

Icequeen99 wrote: »

Can you point me to the HMRC rules that say that the same person cannot register as an employer and be an employee at the same time in a care and support situation?

I am not aware of any provision that would stop this (leaving aside the fact social services might not allow it - but it situations where they do allow family members it is possible those family members may also have to administer the direct payment budget). The mother in this case could not just choose to be self-employed, employed vs. self-employed is not a choice.

IQ

Phone HMRC then and ask them.

You are confusing managing the DP and who the DP is paid to.

In my lengthy reply I explained the difference between a DP for a parent and an adult receiving it.

Parents still have responsibility for their children's care a DP is paid to assist them in this.

It would be the equivalent of paying someone to care for them self as an adult.

There is indeed nothing to stop an adult managing the DP on behalf of another adult user, and being an employee. But they cannot be the employer as well certainly not as far as HMRC is concerned as a sole registered employer with them so the User in these circumstances would be the employer for HMRC purposes regardless of who did the day to day management of the DP.

Icequeen99

I have phoned HMRC. And I am not confusing the two situations.

I checked my own situation with HMRC as the adult in my situation lacks mental capacity and cannot be the employer. They said I could be the employer.

As I said, in that situation I could be both employer and employee.

As this is now academic I shall bow out.

cattermole

Icequeen99 wrote: »

I had to argue with them to be allowed to go it alone because for various reasons my DP budget won't be increased to cover the payroll cost.

I agree with all you say, except for the HMRC point. I disagree with that. I think if the family member also received the direct payment they would have to be employer and employee - HMRC don't have any other process to deal with it and there is nothing in tax legislation I am aware of to prevent it. Self-employment wouldn't be an option.

IQ

I know I am correct because I've been in the situation with HMRC, the HMRC have no knowledge or interest in who receives the DP all they care about is employee/er status and who the "employer" is and when I did work for my adult daughter for HMRC purposes she was the employer and it was changed from previously being me. However they still communicated with me as the Manager of the Payroll on behalf of her. (She did not live at the same address btw and it was a 24/7 package involving 5/6 carers. Social Worker fully supported it)

They would not agree to the registeted employer for tax/ni purposes being an employee. It was a technicality as far as they were concerned. The lacking capacity was not discussed so that could be an issue I agree but that would mean someone else would have to be the "employer" .for HMRC purposes if you wanted to work for the person you are managing the DP for.

As I said Managing the DP on behalf of someone else and being the employer is not the same as also being an employee as far as HMRC is concerned.

Your query with them was not could you work as the employee if you were also the employer was it?

It was whether someone wHo lacked capacity could be the employer?

cattermole

Regarding your payroll costs they should give you the equivalent of what it costs them to purchase from the support service.

If you do your own payroll then they don't have to pay anything as there is no cost.

You shouldn't need to argue to do your own payroll it is none of their business as long as everything is properly accounted for on audit.

Icequeen99

cattermole wrote: »

I know I am correct because I've been in the situation with HMRC, the HMRC have no knowledge or interest in who receives the DP all they care about is employee/er status and who the "employer" is and when I did work for my adult daughter for HMRC purposes she was the employer and it was changed from previously being me. However they still communicated with me as the Manager of the Payroll on behalf of her. (She did not live at the same address btw and it was a 24/7 package involving 5/6 carers. Social Worker fully supported it)

They would not agree to the registeted employer for tax/ni purposes being an employee. It was a technicality as far as they were concerned. The lacking capacity was not discussed so that could be an issue I agree but that would mean someone else would have to be the "employer" .for HMRC purposes if you wanted to work for the person you are managing the DP for.

As I said Managing the DP on behalf of someone else and being the employer is not the same as also being an employee as far as HMRC is concerned.

Your query with them was not could you work as the employee if you were also the employer was it?

It was whether someone wHo lacked capacity could be the employer?

My question to HMRC covered both parts. They said I could be both employer and employee.

I can't find anything that would stop that.


IQ

cattermole

You cannot employ yourself unless you are a limited company!

https://www.gov.uk/register-employer

You would have to be "self employed" hence the term.

poppy10_2

fed_up_and_stressed wrote: »

Just to make the Mummytofour's situation clearer. She gets mortgage interest payment relief and just last month was planning on buying a btl.

This is whilst she is receiving state support for her mortgage through smi.

The mortgage is joint with her ex husband who pays £55 a week to her csa out of his £113k inheritance.

Holy cow. That's utter outrageous. Some people have no shame. I guess getting paid the equivalent of £77k per annum before tax for looking after your own children just isn't enough for some people.