Britain and the EU

Thrugelmir

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Germany decided on it's own back to welcome hundreds of thousands of people into the EU.

Because it needs them. Hence also why free movement is important.

Graham_Devon

Regarding the in campaign, in my opinion, they really should have done away with all the business and politico types.

Most realise that the EU, and indeed, immigration is good for business.

However, what's good for business is not necessarily good for everyone else.

Secondly, I note that those heading the campaign, were also those heading the campaign to join the fated Euro.

Third, the very first speech uses insults against anyone who wishes to vote no, claiming these people are "quitters".

Fourth, the campaign video is all scare tactics and how great it is for business, deregulation this, deregulation that, business business business and the conclusion this has made air fares cheaper (even though air fares across the world have dropped!). Theres nothing really concrete in it about what we genuinely get from the EU that we could no longer benefit from if we left. Just this overarching assumption that if we left, we'd lose everything that the EU helps us to achieve. That's absolute nonsense.... you only need look at Norway to note that.

They needed to get away from the big business pro immigration scare stories and tell everyday people on the ground the benefits of being in the EU. What it means to the rows of terraces and the families living within them up and down the country.

Instead we have a scare story from people who benefit massively from cheap labour about how the UK will implode should we leave.

We must negotiate they say - but won't say on what.

I would have thought they could have come up with something a little more creative and far reaching than this.

Mistermeaner

It's early days. Keep your trump cards back until you need them

Graham_Devon

Mistermeaner wrote: »

It's early days. Keep your trump cards back until you need them

These are not trump cards. It's not a game of trumps.

They are merely observations. Observations which you are welcome to correct - but an explanation would be useful at the same time rather than a meaningless one liner.

If you can point me in the direction of anything in that In campaigns video that is reaching out to the joe public (without falling back to the position of securing their job), feel free. But there's nothing there.

There's some guff about maternity rights which I doubt would be pedalled back should we leave the EU. Theres extreme guff about crime and how the EU allows those who fight crime to work together giving the impression our ability to fight international crime would flounder if we left the EU which is clearly nonsense considering we work with the world on this stuff.

The rest is simply business business business and how good it is for those at the very top.

wotsthat

On the very first day of either side's campaign I'd expect nothing much more than positive spin. It's far to early to debate the minutiae of the arguments that may be presented when there isn't a date and the terms and outcome of Cameron's negotiations are still unknown.

Mistermeaner

I've not watched it. But neither campaign has even got going yet - plenty of time for both sides to get their points across.

Say something too early before the referendum and people either forget and / or you give the opposition plenty of time to formulate counter arguments to your best points.

It is a game of trumps and timing will be key

Graham_Devon

wotsthat wrote: »

On the very first day of either side's campaign I'd expect nothing much more than positive spin. It's far to early to debate the minutiae of the arguments that may be presented when there isn't a date and the terms and outcome of Cameron's negotiations are still unknown.

It's long been known and argued that the case for remaining in europe is leaning far to heavily on business. It's been argued many times that any campaign should reach out to people, rather than already convinced business.

My point was specifically about the very first day of the campaign. It wasn't about anything else.

I could be persuaded to vote to remain in Europe, I'm not categorically on the no side. I just don't see the benefits for all those driving home tonight from a day at work, whether it be plastering walls, fixing radiators, working on a shop floor, delivering parcels for a courier company or treating people in A&E.

I want to know, specifically what those benefits are. Then I want to look at whether those benefits are categorically gone should we leave the EU.

These questions are not being answered. The closest we came to consumers benefitting in the UK from being in the EU was that air fares were 40% cheaper and mobile phone tarrifs were cheaper.

It doesn't really relate that these things happened specifically because of being in the EU. Firstly air fares across the board are cheaper, whether you are travelling in or outside of the EU. They have been getting cheaper for years. So it's difficult to assume that it's all a result of the EU as the video makes out. As for phone tarrifs and roaming, great for those who roam. Not sure it's a deal breaker though in all honesty when you consider everything else that comes with the EU and everything that could be argued is now more expensive.

Maternity rights - I get that and thats a good thing to come from the EU. But would we lose them if we left the EU? I can't imagine we would as it would be political suicide. If someone told me we would categorically lose maternity rights should we go it alone I may think again.....

I don't honestly imagine that the in campaign are saving all the good bits till last.

wotsthat

It's the first day of what could be a very long campaign. To have expected a list of the specific benefits of staying or leaving is probably unrealistic when there's no date and has been no negotiation. Haven't seen either sides launch but I'd guess at maybe a bit of fanfare, union jacks and happy faces all round whichever one you went to.

I'm liking the idea that Graham_Devon is a wavering voter (like me).

I'm not sure I'm going to be able to drum up the enthusiasm for it. Unless something exciting happens to get people going I'd expect quite a low turnout.

Overall I think staying would be better for business and therefore their employees and I think there are unquantifiable benefits to a Europe working closely together. The sun will still rise if we leave though and I'm pretty sure those who think they're getting the shaft and blaming Europe will still be getting the shaft if we leave.

Maybe I'll get more frothy as we go on.

Graham_Devon

wotsthat wrote: »

It's the first day of what could be a very long campaign. To have expected a list of the specific benefits of staying or leaving is probably unrealistic when there's no date and has been no negotiation.

I agree.

All I'm saying is I'd have expected at least something that wasn't the usual business argument. Just this morning it was being discussed on the radio that all we ever hear is the benefits of the large corporates. And then the in campaign does the same thing again.

I guess I'm open to it on here too from the Pro-EU side of the debate. If anyone can give me just a handful of benefits that the UK will lose from not being in the EU that the UK itself could not possibly replicate I'd love to hear them.

I'm sure there will be some. I just don't believe, currently, they are that major - otherwise more would have been said already.

Mistermeaner

Big business = jobs and prosperity = successful economy = happy people and nice place to live


I'm Not saying the economy will tank if we leave the eu but I think the link between a successful economy and happy people is clear.