Britain and the EU

antrobus

Masomnia wrote: »

Of course we will. What do you think 'ever closer union' means?.....

I know exactly what 'ever closer union' means.

Masomnia wrote: »

...The last Prime Minister but one was in favour of us joining. It won't be too long until we have another one that is....

Blair wanted British membership of the Euro to be his 'legacy'. Still didn't get us into the Euro, now did it.

If you had been paying attention you would know that even former Euro enthusiasts such as Mandelson have now given up on the idea. I think you would struggle these days to find a single politician who even thought it was worth considering the idea. Thus I believe it will be a very, very, very long time before we have another PM who is pro-Euro.

P.S. Sweden, which is supposed to be committed to joining the Euro, still shows no sign of actually doing so.

Masomnia wrote: »

....Indeed, which is why there won't be one. If there was a plan for leaving people would vote for it. If the British public was offered purely a free trade agreement then they'd vote for that; which is precisely why that option is not on the table.

You clearly don't understand the point.

Once you have decided to leave the EU, you tell them of your intention. At which point, the EU "shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union".

Thus it would be "rather silly" just to leave without having first negotiated the "future relationship with the Union".

antrobus

Sapphire wrote: »

I think the EU should function as a common market only, i.e. I don't believe it should be any kind of pan-European political state (dictated to largely by Germany), and I think we should definitely have control over our own borders and laws, and not have decisions forced on us. ...…

The question would be 'what do you mean by a common market?' The EU knows what it means by a 'common market', it is defined by the EEA. By definition, if you have a common market, you have to have common rules for that market.

Sapphire wrote: »

......... I think Britain will benefit by voting 'no' to the EU and having a status similar to Norway's, say…

Norway has even less control over it's own borders than we do. They are in Schengen; we have an opt-out. Norway does not have completer control over it's own laws either. It is still obliged, by virtue of the EEA, to implement EU directives, despite having little or no say in the content of said directives.

Open Europe describes the Norway option as being "nearly but not quite an EU member" and argues that "Britain would still face EU regulations costing £31.4bn a year – around 94% of the current costs – if it left the EU and opted for a relationship with Brussels along the lines of the one negotiated by Norway",
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/mar/16/eu-exit-norway-option-costs-thinktank

Sapphire

antrobus wrote: »

Norway has even less control over it's own borders than we do. They are in Schengen; we have an opt-out. Norway does not have completer control over it's own laws either. It is still obliged, by virtue of the EEA, to implement EU directives, despite having little or no say in the content of said directives

I don't know about the details of the EU's relationship with Norway. However, what I do know is that I don't want a situation in which Germany dictates – and in an authoritarian and aggressive way – to all countries within the EU, even though their citizens may be totally opposed to a policy (the recent bullying of small nations over the migrant invasion was completely out of order, in my view). I think that is totally wrong, and dangerous. And I categorically disagree with Merkel and Junker's actions on migration, which potentially have opened the door to tens of millions of economic migrants from countries with inhabitants with views that are generally hostile to our way of life, and who would seek to destroy it, as well as being a drain on our already severely stretched economic resources (health especially, but also housing). We should have control over our borders, and use it.

Additionally, I like the idea of nations, with their varied and fascinating histories and traditions, and do not want to see them develop into a homogenous whole.

I don't see any reason why Britain could not retain its independence, perhaps with a loose trading agreement with the EU (as well as with countries outside the EU). We'd also probably save quite a bit of money by leaving the EU.

[Deleted User]

On another thread I had posted the Bet 365 odds.... on 30 August the odds were ....

Stay in ..... 2/9

Leave ....... 3/1

Today they are.....

Stay in ....... 4/11

Leave. ....... 2/1

Not in any way scientific, but it seems to me that the 'out' folk are betting on their preferred outcome ... of course, you can't read much into that.... it could be that folk who bet (not a trait traditionally regarded as particularly wise!) are more likely to think that the UK will leave ?

Betting odds are after all simply a reflection of where the money is going, not 'the bookies' informed expectation of what the result will be. Interesting nonetheless?

WR

antrobus

Sapphire wrote: »

I don't know about the details of the EU's relationship with Norway.....

Norway is not in the EU, but is in the EEA. The European Economic Area aka the single market, is based on the principle of the four freedoms; i.e. the free movement of goods, services, capital, and labour. Or what you might call 'free trade max'. So whilst taking the Norway option might well be cheaper (a much lower contribution to the EU), in order to regain control over our borders, we would need to exit the EEA.

Sapphire wrote: »

...However, what I do know is that I don't want a situation in which Germany dictates – and in an authoritarian and aggressive way – to all countries within the EU, even though their citizens may be totally opposed to a policy (the recent bullying of small nations over the migrant invasion was completely out of order, in my view). I think that is totally wrong, and dangerous. ..

I suspect that this is a reference to the mandatory refugee quotas recently set by the EU. Germany did not dictate anything, both France and Italy also "pushed hard" for the idea, and everybody voted for it apart from Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Romania, who don't like it at all.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34324096

But that is in the nature of democracy; sometimes you get outvoted.:)

Sapphire wrote: »

...I don't see any reason why Britain could not retain its independence, perhaps with a loose trading agreement with the EU (as well as with countries outside the EU). We'd also probably save quite a bit of money by leaving the EU.

Depends on what you mean by a "loose trading agreement".

BobQ

While I think we will vote to stay in, and that Cameron's renegotiation is a fairly pointless and political tactic (as to be fair was Harold Wilson's in 1975), I also think that those wishing to remain should not be too complacent about this campaign.

leveller2911

Sapphire wrote: »

However, what I do know is that I don't want a situation in which Germany dictates – and in an authoritarian and aggressive way – to all countries within the EU, even though their citizens may be totally opposed to a policy (the recent bullying of small nations over the migrant invasion was completely out of order, in my view). I think that is totally wrong, and dangerous. And I categorically disagree with Merkel and Junker's actions on migration, which potentially have opened the door to tens of millions of economic migrants from countries with inhabitants with views that are generally hostile to our way of life, and who would seek to destroy it, as well as being a drain on our already severely stretched economic resources (health especially, but also housing). We should have control over our borders, and use it.

Spot on and when you consider the fact that Merkal didn't even get permission for her "open door" migration policy fom the German electorate she was never going to ask for permission from the rest of the EU states , whilst knowing that they would face an influx of refugees/economic migrants with the associated problems.Merkal freely admits the influx of people will change the German culture .She had no right to open the German border and there will be real problems in Germany because of this policy.

The EU's total incompetence to come up with a real plan to deal with the issue shows the EU for what it really is.

Additionally, I like the idea of nations, with their varied and fascinating histories and traditions, and do not want to see them develop into a homogenous whole.

I've never really understood why anyone would want a Unites States of Europe where we would all be exactly the same culture because thats what the EU wants. They don't want people to think they are British,German,Polish or Estonian first and foremost above being European and they will make sure they stifle cultures. I like visiting different cultures and off to Croatia next year for a look round but no point leaving the UK if everywhere in the EU is the same , which it will be in 3-4 generations time if we go ahead and stay.

The EU can never be what it wants to be which is a "United States of Europe". The US states , have a common identity in being American even though they have their own localised culture but Europe is so diverse ,so many different cultures and you cannot extinguish all of the cultures to get that single "European" identity.

I don't see any reason why Britain could not retain its independence, perhaps with a loose trading agreement with the EU (as well as with countries outside the EU). We'd also probably save quite a bit of money by leaving the EU.

People who want to stay in bang on about how we will lose business and have trade tariffs imposed on us but how many other European countries who are not in the EU pay trade tariffs ? and if so what percentage are the trade tariffs?. I read somewhere that Britains export trade with the EU accounts for just less than 10% of our GDP if thats true then why are some people so worried about leaving, is it a lack of confidence I wonder.

All we see so far is big business wanting to stay in purely for selfish reasons, they have no interest in the bigger picture for future lives of the UK people, they are driven by one thing and thats profit. Profit and making money is not the be all and end all in life and the UK can survive quite easily outside the EU. All the scaremongering by the pro EU lobby is verging on pathetic.

Sapphire

leveller2911 wrote: »

Sapphire wrote: »

Spot on and when you consider the fact that Merkal didn't even get permission for her "open door" migration policy fom the German electorate she was never going to ask for permission from the rest of the EU states , whilst knowing that they would face an influx of refugees/economic migrants with the associated problems.Merkal freely admits the influx of people will change the German culture .She had no right to open the German border and there will be real problems in Germany because of this policy.

The EU's total incompetence to come up with a real plan to deal with the issue shows the EU for what it really is.

I've never really understood why anyone would want a Unites States of Europe where we would all be exactly the same culture because thats what the EU wants. They don't want people to think they are British,German,Polish or Estonian first and foremost above being European and they will make sure they stifle cultures. I like visiting different cultures and off to Croatia next year for a look round but no point leaving the UK if everywhere in the EU is the same , which it will be in 3-4 generations time if we go ahead and stay.

The EU can never be what it wants to be which is a "United States of Europe". The US states , have a common identity in being American even though they have their own localised culture but Europe is so diverse ,so many different cultures and you cannot extinguish all of the cultures to get that single "European" identity.

All we see so far is big business wanting to stay in purely for selfish reasons, they have no interest in the bigger picture for future lives of the UK people, they are driven by one thing and thats profit. Profit and making money is not the be all and end all in life and the UK can survive quite easily outside the EU. All the scaremongering by the pro EU lobby is verging on pathetic.

Absolutely agree with everything you say – and there already appear to be big problems in Germany because of Merkel's stance on migration. There have been massive demonstrations by Germans. There have been fights between the migrants themselves (already!), and there has been complaining from migrants (already). Such events will only get (much) worse the more migrants Germany (and other countries) takes in.

I also think the EU (aka Germany) has completely failed in dealing with the influx of migrants. It has sent the wrong message to all and sundry in the 'developing' world, and this has caused massive problems for many small countries that do not want migration and cannot afford it. Attempting to force sovereign states that have already suffered waves of cruel invasion throughout their histories to do so is just beyond disgusting, in my view.:mad:

There's also the real, worrying possibility that once those masses from the Middle East and Africa, who have arrived illegally in Europe, receive permission to stay in Germany (and elsewhere in the EU) and become German citizens, they will promptly want to up sticks and come to Britain. That's another reason why I will vote for 'NO' to the EU.

michaels

antrobus wrote: »

But that is in the nature of democracy; sometimes you get outvoted.:)

Funny, in a sovereign democracy I thought you could control your boarders and decide not to admit non-citizens, indeed I would say that was fundamental....

Sapphire

michaels wrote: »

Funny, in a sovereign democracy I thought you could control your boarders and decide not to admit non-citizens, indeed I would say that was fundamental....

Very good slip up there, Michaels. Let's man the barricades and repel 'boarders' to protect our 'borders'. :shocked:

Agree wholeheartedly.