Britain and the EU

michaels

Generali wrote: »

I'm not sure that referenda are the way forward. The Westminster System means you put someone up to represent you. Let them represent you not crap themselves because a tricky decision needs to be made so they chuck it back to you.

Which is fine under Westminster FPTP, we can vote the barsteweards out when (not if) they get too venal. However in the European superstate the odds of UK votes making any difference to anything are to a first approximation zero. FIFA is a good analogy, everyone knew they were corrupt but the English FA couldn't do a thing about it.

Generali

michaels wrote: »

Which is fine under Westminster FPTP, we can vote the barsteweards out when (not if) they get to venal. However in the European superstate the odds of UK votes making any difference to anything are to a first approximation zero. FIFA is a good analogy, everyone knew they were corrupt but the English FA couldn't do a thing about it.

Fine.

Vote UKIP to represent 'your' desire to get out of the EU or stand for election yourself if nobody represents your views.

N1AK

michaels wrote: »

FIFA is a good analogy, everyone knew they were corrupt but the English FA couldn't do a thing about it.

Yes it is, because much like the UK and the EU if the FA is happy with how FIFA is operating it can remain in, and when FIFA turned out to be corrupt it could try and change it and/or choose to leave.

Half the nonsense from the Out campaign is based on the concept that we should leave now in case the EU gets worse in future. Which means we should probably leave the UN, Nato etc immediately lest they also might become 'bad' at some indeterminate date in the future.

Moby

Mistermeaner wrote: »

There was an interesting discussion on the radio regards this this morning. Nothing new to you well informed people I'm sure but I learned a couple of things

- 40% of Britain exports go to the EU
- 60% elsewhere (obviously!)
- So while not the majority of our exports, they are our largest single export partner
- 24/27 (i think) of the EU member states have a trade surplus with us (that is they sell more to us than we buy from them) - or in other words they have more to lose than us if we stopped trading with them

Loads of stats in the link below that I am sure (Generali) or someone else will make sense of........

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Intra-EU_trade_in_goods_-_recent_trends


I wanted to add a poll but can't figure out how but, where do you stand?

1. We should be fully in, unconditionally
2. We should be completely out (whatever that means)
3. We should exit with a view to negotiating a free trade agreement (ala Canada/Norway et al.) - [is there a risk of a backlash though?]
4. Big Dave has the right approach, we should negotiate as best we can a treaty so that we remain in but more on our terms
5. Pending on the results of 4 I might go for 3 or 2
6. Regardless of the outcome of 4 I would stay in, but hope we get the best deal we can.
7. I don't like foreigners
8. I wonder what happens to Scotland?


I think I am leaning 4 at the moment, lets see how Dave gets on as I am not sure on our ability to negotiate a free trade agreement after exit, but if the terms of staying in are not acceptable then I would be up for taking our chances.

For perspective while I live in England approx 80% of my income is derived from work I do on behalf of EU businesses........

Call me Dave's 'negotiations' are complete nonsense and are really for his own political 'window dressing' purposes.....!
My view is we stay in regardless and argue for any changes while being at the table. That's what being part of a union means! Anything else is a pathetic withdrawal from the world!
The thing I'm quite suprised about is that the 'out' vote seems strong and may have more momentum than I thought. We could be at a big watershed in this country soon? and it could turn nasty because despite his posturing...... porky dave clearly wants to stay in whatever the cost!

Mistermeaner

Hopefully the threat of a UK out referendum gives Dave some clout at negotiations to get a decent enough result to persuade the floating voters that in is better. People at the extremes don't tend to move.

antrobus

Moby wrote: »

........ porky dave clearly wants to stay in whatever the cost!

Porky Dave? Going off message already?!:)

The new Party line is very clear; "I don't do personal".

CLAPTON

gosh
one could almost conclude that if the UK left the EU, it would be the only country in the world that wasn't a member.

Now do the other countries survive?

No-one could rationally examine the EU response to the financial crisis or how Greece and the other southern countries were 'managed' or the current migration situation without concluding the the EU isn't a union or European but simply a vehicle for Germany to express itself.

(there is a little joke in there)

antrobus

Mistermeaner wrote: »

...I wanted to add a poll but can't figure out how but, where do you stand?

1. We should be fully in, unconditionally....

We are never gonna sign up to the Euro. So that ain't gonna happen.

Mistermeaner wrote: »

..2. We should be completely out (whatever that means)....

It means, presumably, giving notice as required under the Lisbon Treaty, and ceasing to be a member of the EU in due course. It would be rather silly to leave without any plan as to what to do afterwards.

Mistermeaner wrote: »

....3. We should exit with a view to negotiating a free trade agreement (ala Canada/Norway et al.) - [is there a risk of a backlash though?]....

CETA is probably more of a model than EFTA-EEA. No point leaving the EU unless you are also going to dump the EEA.

Mistermeaner wrote: »

...4. Big Dave has the right approach, we should negotiate as best we can a treaty so that we remain in but more on our terms...

He can but try.

Mistermeaner wrote: »

...5. Pending on the results of 4 I might go for 3 or 2..

3 possibly. Not 2.

Mistermeaner wrote: »

...6. Regardless of the outcome of 4 I would stay in, but hope we get the best deal we can.

I'm more inclined to stay rather than go.

Mistermeaner wrote: »

...7. I don't like foreigners.

I quite like foreigners. Except I'm not that sure about the English. I have kinda got used to them, but there is still room for improvement.:)

Mistermeaner wrote: »

...8. I wonder what happens to Scotland?...

That would up to Scotland.

kabayiri

It's interesting.

If this short thread is anything to go by, this is going to be quite an aggressive referendum from both sides.

Even if the result is to remain in, the campaign process could drive deep divisions within the Tory party.

The Scottish indy referendum has shown that the losing side don't just give up either.

Perhaps the worst outcome is a close call, where each camp claim some kind of victory?

Thrugelmir

kabayiri wrote: »

If this short thread is anything to go by, this is going to be quite an aggressive referendum from both sides.

There's plenty of division in Europe already. Refugee crisis has clearly shown that. Germany acted in self interest.