holiday fines

jackieblack

Maureen43 wrote: »

5) Children in the UK have to attend school during term time by law.

Er, no, they don't :huh:

Children have to be educated, this doesn't mean they have to attend school

Jagraf

jackieblack wrote: »

Er, no, they don't :huh:

Children have to be educated, this doesn't mean they have to attend school

Absolutely correct. However there are a certain number of parents who use the school system and then feel they know how to educate their children on holiday.

Home ed parents work hard to educate their kids and are good at their jobs. Parents who decide to become a teacher for two weeks whilst on holiday at disneyworld are a whole different ball game.

Guest101

Jagraf wrote: »

I have no problem at all with home ed. I think its a very viable choice for lots of children. And also other forms of education, like independent school. These educational choices allow for other children to receive an education too, so good all round.

I don't think anyone can compare their intelligence against a profession. I am probably as intelligent as a surgeon, but I havent been educated in that field so I don't have those skills. I wouldn't perform surgery on my kids either, just because I have the potential of being able to do so, or because I think I can.

To be more flowery, life is a learning experience. Schools gear towards one set of qualifications, the content of which is a different debate from this. I have no doubt that a child learns from kicking a ball around on a field, or visiting monuments.

What I am saying is that if parents know better (and some might) then don't use the system. If they want to use the system, use it properly and don't dip in and out of it to the detriment of the child.

We are playing with or childrens futures by not sticking to our chosen system, and finding excuses to dabble around with it, with an excuse that we can do it better than the profession, but only when we want a holiday.

Sorry but feel you've missed my point slightly. I did say most teachers i've met, so not comparing myself to the whole profession. And i did clarify the skills that teachers have, which i dont. HOWEVER those skills are not the ability to pass on knowledge - we all have that ability.

The skills teachers have involve a structured learning environment for dozens of pupils. I am talking about providing educational opportunities to your own children, which in most cases is 1-3 kids, between 2 adults.

I couldnt be a school teacher, I wouldnt want to be and dont have the skills for that.

I think ignoring the curriculum argument is actually limiting the fundamental point im making. If I take my son to my homeland, he would not be in 'disneyland', he would be in museums, or visiting wonders of the world, or learning new language and culture. I dont think the curriculum provides the necessary education to excel in life, it's geared towards the lowest common denominator.

You use the words 'chosen' system, unfortunately, the 'choice' is largely removed. If you fail to enrol your child, you have to justify that decision to a group of people, that I have some choice words to describe their profession. On top of that it is largely impossible to home educate children and provide shelter, food, etc.

Even if I could afford it, my child would struggle to develop social skills as such a vast majority of children go to school that regular exposure to peer groups would be near impossible.

Given this is akin to duress, in my opinion the education system is not a system fit for purpose (unless we accept that purpose is to simply meet the basic standards).

All that said, there are plenty of parents who do take the mick. Booking beach holidays, expecting their kids to just play in the sand as they drink all inclusive cocktails until they pass out.

DCodd

Jagraf wrote: »

Absolutely correct. However there are a certain number of parents who use the school system and then feel they know how to educate their children on holiday.

.

I'm not so sure that these parents believe that or expect to educate their child in the same manner as a school would. It's probably more along the lines of the experience is an equally valid education.

I have some sympathy with this. Experiencing how other Cultures / Countries differ from ourselves is not a trifling thing. The misconceptions that people take into their adult lives are usually based on the misconceptions of the previous generations who mould them and should be challenged. First hand experience (even brief and out of context) can fuel the desire to learn more.

cyantist

Guest101 wrote: »

A holiday can be much more educational than a classroom. Seeing the pyramids first hand, walking along red square, looking at the mona Lisa in the flesh. Teachers teach a curriculum, a lot of which has little bearing on adulthood. It's a try before to buy career wise with many subjects.

I saw the pyramids first hand on a school trip and I didn't find it particularly educational. Also, that school trip was arranged for the holidays - there's no way it would have been organised during term time as it would have interfered with our education.

Holidays can be educational I'm sure, but going to school every week plus going on holiday during the 12 weeks of allowed holiday time is obviously the best option. Even during the school holidays, trips don't have to cost a fortune and if people can't afford a certain holiday, they can go somewhere cheaper.

Guest101

cyantist wrote: »

I saw the pyramids first hand on a school trip and I didn't find it particularly educational. Also, that school trip was arranged for the holidays - there's no way it would have been organised during term time as it would have interfered with our education.

Holidays can be educational I'm sure, but going to school every week plus going on holiday during the 12 weeks of allowed holiday time is obviously the best option. Even during the school holidays, trips don't have to cost a fortune and if people can't afford a certain holiday, they can go somewhere cheaper.

So you saw the pyramids with all your friends there, i suspect busy chatting away and being distracted. Your lone experience is of course a bar set high for all educational holidays, and must now be set as the principle for all decisions?

I'll counter and say I saw the pyramids with my family, and the museum, and the markets, and experienced the whole culture; and on the same trip went to israel. I've seen the bayeux tapestry the summer we learnt about 1066. I've visited dozens of countries, and whilst one or two holidays were 'fun orientated', the vast majority were experiences I would want my children to have too. The ability to understand other cultures and countries, have a 'global' view.

You say it's 'obviously' the best option. There's absolutely nothing obvious about it, hence this debate.

cyantist

Guest101 wrote: »

So you saw the pyramids with all your friends there, i suspect busy chatting away and being distracted. Your lone experience is of course a bar set high for all educational holidays, and must now be set as the principle for all decisions?

I'll counter and say I saw the pyramids with my family, and the museum, and the markets, and experienced the whole culture; and on the same trip went to israel. I've seen the bayeux tapestry the summer we learnt about 1066. I've visited dozens of countries, and whilst one or two holidays were 'fun orientated', the vast majority were experiences I would want my children to have too. The ability to understand other cultures and countries, have a 'global' view.

You say it's 'obviously' the best option. There's absolutely nothing obvious about it, hence this debate.

When you take your kids away are they distracted and chatting away and ignoring the amazing sights? I assume not otherwise there would be no point in taking them on these holidays, so why would I be distracted, no matter who I was with? And actually there were only 12 students on the trip, none of my friends could afford to go and there wasn't even anyone from my class at school.

On that same trip we went to the Cairo museums, the Acropolis, Ephesus and Israel, as well as several other interesting and historical places and I will admit that on the two days we spent in Israel I learnt a lot, especially at the Holocaust museum and seeing Schindler's grave. They are experiences I would definitely want my children to have I just didn't find them most of the things we did particularly educational.

I did say "Holidays can be educational, I'm sure" so in no way was I saying that because I went on holiday and didn't find it educational, that that applies across the board.

If it was the same cost to take children away during or outside of term time, and there was no other reason such as work or other commitments that would prevent you from holidaying outside of term time, you'd still choose to take your children away when they should be in school?

I can understand people doing it if they can't afford to go at another time (doesn't mean I agree). But doing it for no other reason than you think a holiday is as good as school seems a little stubborn.

Jagraf

DCodd wrote: »

I'm not so sure that these parents believe that or expect to educate their child in the same manner as a school would. It's probably more along the lines of the experience is an equally valid education.

I have some sympathy with this. Experiencing how other Cultures / Countries differ from ourselves is not a trifling thing. The misconceptions that people take into their adult lives are usually based on the misconceptions of the previous generations who mould them and should be challenged. First hand experience (even brief and out of context) can fuel the desire to learn more.

I agree with you. I'm not sure there is a need to do it during term time though. You can lean about other cultures easily without taking time off school - a weekend trip to any European destination, plus a long haul trip when money has been saved , even if it is only occasionally because of affordability. There is plenty to learn about other than just culture and travel. I'm not sure why people see this as more important than learning about the brain, politics, etc. these kids also have a life post compulsory ed, many travel and see the world for themselves.

I would much rather furnish my DD with qualifications and a sound 'formal' education so that she can then piece her experiences together with culture, travel etc.

We all naturally want to give our kids everything, they don't need to do it all with us though, even if we want them to.

Guest101

cyantist wrote: »

When you take your kids away are they distracted and chatting away and ignoring the amazing sights? I assume not otherwise there would be no point in taking them on these holidays, so why would I be distracted, no matter who I was with? And actually there were only 12 students on the trip, none of my friends could afford to go and there wasn't even anyone from my class at school.

On that same trip we went to the Cairo museums, the Acropolis, Ephesus and Israel, as well as several other interesting and historical places and I will admit that the two days we spent in Israel were amazing, especially the Holocaust museum and seeing Schindler's grave. They are experiences I would definitely want my children to have I just didn't find them particularly educational.

I did say "Holidays can be educational, I'm sure" so in no way was I saying that because I went on holiday and didn't find it educational, that that applies across the board.

If it was the same cost to take children away during or outside of term time, and there was no other reason such as work or other commitments that would prevent you from holidaying outside of term time, you'd still choose to take your children away when they should be in school?

I can understand people doing it if they can't afford to go at another time (doesn't mean I agree). But doing it for no other reason than you think a holiday is as good as school seems a little stubborn.

I was making a general point about school trips, obviously I wasnt on your trip, so couldn't judtge the atmosphere. It's much easier to keep focus when it's family or close friends with children.(i've taken my son out obviously, and been out with family and friends with children and helped to show the sights and keep focus - very easy with 2 or 3). A large group of children is obviously much harder. Perhaps the location didnt meet your individual needs, or persons the setting and company you had didnt.

You say you found the experience of Israel particularly interesting (I agree by the way, amazing place), perhaps you picked up a book about some of the things you saw. Perhaps it peaked an interest in something. That is educational. Education isn't just about learning 2x2=4, battle of hastings is 1066. It's about nurturing the mind, about experiences.

It would depend on the context. I'm playing devil's advocate to a point. I dont struggle with this matter per se, but i can understand why others do. the obvious answer would be, if cost wasnt an issue, and time wasnt an issue (and the penalty didnt exist are the stick to the carrot) I think most people would holiday outside of term time.
Not because their holiday is less educational, but because the children would receive 100% from school and 100% from the holiday.

I will clarify, I think a holiday is much better than school. But for the vast majority of people, a holiday is once a year. So schooling cannot be ignored.

Guest101

Jagraf wrote: »

I agree with you. I'm not sure there is a need to do it during term time though. You can lean about other cultures easily without taking time off school - a weekend trip to any European destination, plus a long haul trip when money has been saved , even if it is only occasionally because of affordability. There is plenty to learn about other than just culture and travel. I'm not sure why people see this as more important than learning about the brain, politics, etc. these kids also have a life post compulsory ed, many travel and see the world for themselves.

I would much rather furnish my DD with qualifications and a sound 'formal' education so that she can then piece her experiences together with culture, travel etc.

We all naturally want to give our kids everything, they don't need to do it all with us though, even if we want them to.

As long as that is actually being taught. I know schools which didnt mention the magna carta this year, despite it being a centenary. The foundation for freedom, for democracy and it doesnt get a mention?! - that's absolutely disgusting.

And an example of the lowest common denominator i mentioend earlier. Get the curriculum done, dont bother with extras that might actually matter.