Why do some cyclists use the entire lane, use fog horns, and flashing lights?????????

prowla

Richard53 wrote: »

Speed. If you're on something that is capable of keeping up with, and going faster than, the majority of traffic, it makes sense to ride in a position similar to a car's. On a vehicle that is (usually) a lot slower than the traffic stream, a position to the left (consistent with safety, i.e. out of the gutter and a door's width away from parked cars) is reasonable. As a cyclist, that's what I do, and as a car driver I have no problem with other people doing it.

Yes, I agree with that.

frisbeej wrote: »

Which is what sensible cyclists do.

But they are saying keep dangerously left at all times, within the range of opening doors, over drain hole covers and junk at the edge of the road, so close to the curb that you risk striking it with a pedal.

As, what they perceive, a third class road user you aren't permitted impede their progress or take any action to improve your own journey or safety.

That's not what I'm saying; I am pointing out the all-encompassing "keep to the left" rule as opposed to the so-called "primary position"; you might notice that cycle lanes on roads tend to be on the left too, as opposed to along the middle of the road.

Of course, in your extreme case, going along with your pedals scraping the kerb would mean that your handlebars were overlapping onto the pavement and thus causing a hazard to pedestrians, so that wouldn't be allowed anyway.

Norman_Castle

prowla wrote: »

When was the last time you were in a queue of traffic stuck behind a motorcyclist doing 20 on a 60 road?

prowla wrote: »

the all-encompassing "keep to the left" rule .

So the "all encompassing" keep to the left rule only applies to slower vehicles?.

trinidadone

Hedgehog99 wrote: »

Despite trying to adhere to the rules of the road and be a courteous cyclist:

I got so fed up with being treated as a z-class citizen by everyone else - drivers, cyclists and pedestrians.

I was chased by a road-rage maniac who damaged my bike and only didn't damage me because of a street-full of witnesses who chased him off.

I was driven at by taxis/buses/white vans all the time, and once fell off, causing an injury I still have now.

I was screamed at by a DHL courier who drove alongside me (van was on wrong side of the road) swearing while not looking where they were going for a good 20 metres including blind bend. Dread to think what would have happened if something had come the other way. DHL driver's instinct would have been to swerve - righ in to me.

Umpteen zillion occurrences of parking in cycle lanes I needed to use & pedestrians negligently all over the place

I was once wheeling my bike home from the hardware store, laden with items that meant I couldn't ride it. Woman refused to move sides of the path even though it was very hard for me to do so "because I was a bl**dy cyclist".

A kid who can't have been more than nine said the most disgusting thing anyone has ever said to me, out of the blue, just because I was riding a bike - see? it's that culture of cyclist = mud.

Mode of transport now? Car for personal / supermarket / hardware store / recycling centre trips, bus for work.

wow, really sorry you had all those bad experiences. Do you live in a big city???

brat

prowla wrote: »

So, despite knowing that your interpretation of the Highway Code is wrong, you're happy to use that misinterpretation to accuse cyclists of not believing the rules apply to them. Nice.
Originally posted by brat

Please explain?

Of course.
The general instruction in the highway code is to keep to the left. This general rule applies, but is not in any way prescriptive or instructional when any other safety or view advantage applies. This should (must) be abundantly clear to anyone who drives a vehicle on the road.

If the road has no lane markings you should keep to the left of the road, and allow other vehicles who can pass to pass on your right. However, constantly keeping as left as you can manage will deny you views, especially on left hand bends or approaching nearside junctions, so the 'general' advice is bad. Keeping to the left of a lane on a left hand bend will also give you much less time to react, and will also place you more directly in the path of a slower moving cyclist who may be hidden behind the hedge around the left hander that you're hugging. If a cyclist keeps in to the left in these circumstances, s/he too will not be seen by approaching motorists until late, allowing motorists less time to react.

If the road has lanes, your interpretaton would demand that you keep to the left of the lane, whatever the general circumstances. I would agree with that (as a very basic default) if the lane is very wide, but on a standard (say) 4 metre or less lane, it would be inappropriate to drive to the left of the lane, because you woud be coming too close to the kerb. Driving school instruction in these circumstances is clear, that you should drive centre lane (unless the lane is very wide). You would fail your test if you drove too far to the left.

Roadcraft has quite a lot to say on the subject. in chapter 7. It says

Roadcraft wrote:

"The ideal road position depends on many things, safety, observation, traffic conditions, road layout, cornering, manoeuvrability, assisting traffic flow and making your intentions clear.

By carefully choosing your position you can reduce the risk of having a collision. Be aware of hazards on both sides of your vehicle.
Common roadside hazards are
pedestrians, esp children
parked vehs and occs
cyclists
horses
joggers
concealed junctions
spray from nearside puddles

If you identify hazards on the nearside, take a position closer to the crown of the road. This has two benefits
It gives you a better view
It provides more space to give avoiding action if you need to.

If oncoming traffic makes it unsafe to take this position, or the road is too narrow, reduce your speed.There is an important trade off between your speed and the clearance around your vehicle."

Roadcraft continues at length about appropriate road positioning, but not once does it suggest you should keep to the left hand side of a lane. Its general advice is to be flexible about lane position, and adjust it for safety and view..

Drivers must be free to adjust their lateral road position for safety, so if there is no approaching traffic or nothing in the adjacent lane, and a lot of pedestrians, or parked cars or nearside junctions, then the correct adjustment would be to move to the right to balance safety. Motor cyclists are guided to move to whatever position offers them the best safety and view. They would immediately fail a test if they stuck rigidly to the left of a lane.


It should be crystal clear to all road users that their lateral road/lane position depends on many factors.
If you engage your brain for a second or two, you will realise that hardly any motorist or motor cyclist in practice interprets that Highway Code advice in the way you do. But you're happy to accuse cyclists of failing to adhere to it.
You somehow insist that cyclists (and cyclists alone) ignore this 'rule', presumably for some non-cycling purpose, such as inconveniencing motorists.

That is where your argument becomes disingenuous. If you properly understood the primary and secondary positions and why the governments cycle training scheme includes it for instruction to the assertive confident cyclists who are happy cycling in traffic, you would change your tune.

Cyclists will (when hazards are reduced) move to the secondary position, which is to the left of the lane, to allow freer movement of faster traffic. However, when there is a need to use the centre or the right of the lane, ie when hazards or their manoeuvres dictate, they have every right to do this.

The primary purpose of the primary position is NOT to inconvenience motorists - far from it. It actually makes life a little easier for them, because they don't have to consider the inappropriateness of passing the cyclist at that point, because the cyclist is making it clear to them.

kaya

Most cyclists have this "I have as much right to be on the road as you do" attitude which is fine but it's usually accompanied by a complete lack of respect for other road users and a dismal knowledge of the Highway Code, if they were a little less arrogant and more spatially aware the number of road accidents would drop significantly, I drive a huge silver 4x4 and have lost count of the number of times cyclists have pulled in front of me, changed lane or made a right turn without any attempt to look over their shoulder whatsoever, it's not exactly an inconspicuous vehicle that they would not have noticed with a quick glance. Yes they have as much right to be on the road as I do but they also have a responsibility towards other road users as I do that they seem to be completley unaware of, I have no wish to hurt a cyclist or barge them off of the road but it seems to become more difficult to avoid them as more of them take to the roads, if you are a cyclist reading this then please please take responsibility for your own safety instead of leaving it up to the other vehicle drivers to do it for you

trinidadone

nigglenoo wrote: »

Nobody on this thread is condoning or defending cycling without due care, so please go burn your straw man elsewhere, thank you.

There is no need for those comments nigglenoo.

trinidadone

nigglenoo wrote: »

Yes there is, kaya posted about cyclists doing x y and z risky things as though we were supporting such actions, even though nobody on this thread has, which is a classic straw man argument:

Wikipedia: "A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent."

In fact kaya went further, asserting that most cyclists usually have "a complete lack of respect for other road users and a dismal knowledge of the Highway Code" and that "if they were a little less arrogant and more spatially aware the number of road accidents would drop significantly" whereas we know from police accident report statistics that most injuries to adult cyclists are the fault of motorists.

I read his message thankyou.

Strider590

trinidadone wrote: »

I found this amusing article of a cyclist who was prosecuted last year for being towed by a German Sheppard dog:

http://road.cc/content/news/138070-man-prosecuted-being-towed-down-road-his-german-shepherd

He was prosecuted for using his dog to tow his bike, BUT because there's no law against it and they needed to set an example, they prosecuted him for whatever they could.

Retrogamer

Richard53 wrote: »

Speed. If you're on something that is capable of keeping up with, and going faster than, the majority of traffic, it makes sense to ride in a position similar to a car's. On a vehicle that is (usually) a lot slower than the traffic stream, a position to the left (consistent with safety, i.e. out of the gutter and a door's width away from parked cars) is reasonable. As a cyclist, that's what I do, and as a car driver I have no problem with other people doing it.

I wish someone would tell the motorist where i cycle this. If i can keep up with the traffic i move to the centre position of the road. Despite this i've had several motorists still force their way in front of me. They pull out, overtake, realise there isn't enough gap in front of me to pull back in, but they pull back in anyway forcing me to ram on the brakes.
They risk knocking me off so they can shave 1 second off their journey as it seems some of them have this mentality they must pass the cyclist no matter on the circumstances.

Strider590

prowla wrote: »

I certainly appreciate the need to be aware of your surroundings and that there are indeed situations on the road where a cyclist may need to move out, including pot-holes, drains, parked cars, and so on; however, that flexibility does not mean you should not obey the rules of the road and keep left otherwise.

Ok, you need to try cycling a while to understand the error in this statement............

If a cyclist stays left and then has to keeping moving right to avoid drains, pot holes, doors, etc, then what's going to happen is they're going to get killed.

They'd appear to be swerving all over the road for no reason, because drivers aren't looking for these hazards. You'd get some nut case who'd just assume the cyclist was just deliberately being a c**k and would pass too close, swerve at the cyclist, throw an object, cut in front and get out to punch them, or something similar.

In all honesty, it doesn't matter what a cyclist does, drivers still hate them, so the best way to ride is to take a strong position and give yourself plenty of room JUST in case you do come across a psycho.