Why do some cyclists use the entire lane, use fog horns, and flashing lights?????????
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The rule says that you should keep to the left; it does not say that you must stay at the left at all times, regardless of whether there is a hole in the road, hazard, a parked car, or whatever, and indeed the HC covers that.
And as previously stated, if a motorcyclist followed your interpretation of "The Rule" then they would fail their test despite your assertion that it is an "all-encompassing" rule that applies to everyone.
It's really quite academic anyway as, for example in the photo from the HC that you like so much, regardless of the cyclist's position, be it in the gutter, in the middle of the lane or on the right of the lane, if there is on coming traffic there is no safe overtake leaving the required space so the cars will be stuck behind regardless.0 -
OK, so let's look at that rule of the Highway Code. Let's look at it in its entirety. It saysBrain engaged - thanks for the tip, much appreciated...
The rule says that you should keep to the left; it does not say that you must stay at the left at all times, regardless of whether there is a hole in the road, hazard, a parked car, or whatever, and indeed the HC covers that.
However, if you engage your brain, you will (hopefully) see that advising people to drive in the middle of the lane (aka "primary position") all of the time specifically contradicts the HC.
So, your interpretation of that rule is that road users must keep to the left hand of their lane. The only exceptions to this rule according to the HC are - that you can only deviate from the left when you want to overtake, turn right, or pass vehicles or pedestrians in the road.Highway_Code wrote:keep to the left, unless road signs or markings indicate otherwise. The exceptions are when you want to overtake, turn right or pass parked vehicles or pedestrians in the road
So, potholes are not an exception. Drain covers are not an exception. Pedestrians near the kerb are not an exception. Nearside junctions are not an exception. Slow moving cyclists are not an exception. Riding a motorcycle is not an exception. Driving according to Roadcraft is not an exception. Cycling according to the advice of government cycling tuition is not an exception. Driving to pass your driving test is not an exception.
Driving according to your interpretation of the HC rule 160 means that you will badly fail your IAM test, should you attempt it. You would also be a danger to other road users if you practiced what you preach.
I wonder if the penny is dropping. Is everyone else wrong, or is it your individual interpretation that's wrong?
Your argument fell apart totally when you exempted motorcyclists from your 'all encompassing keep left rule' because they could ride more quickly than other road users. That's not an exception in Rule 160.
You are arguing like an idiot, and I don't think you are an idiot. I think you have a bit of an inbuilt prejudice against cyclists (not as bad as some). I also think you have gone off an a tangent against cyclists using primary without fully grasping its reason and purpose, or the extent of its use.
You don't properly understand it. Have a read of the primary and secondary road positions and their purpose, and then come back to us with whatever attitude you still feel is appropriate, and we'll see if we can sort that for you.With brain engaged, it is still hard to quite grasp the logic in your last sentence that driving in the middle of the road is actually helping the motorist; that is really quite laughable.
You're underlining your prejudice I'm afraid.The assertions in that post do certainly help me understand the mentality of that inconsiderate subset of cyclists, however.
Learn what Cyclecraft and Bikeability (both Govt backed) have to say about primary and secondary, and you might just refresh your attitude.
If you're interested in the IAM, have a look at their thoughts on the cyclists right to use the primary position. They're all for it! http://road.cc/content/news/17033-cyclists-take-prime-position-says-iam-book
IAM also covers lane position quite well. No mention of keeping left here...http://www.niam.org.uk/media/6376/factsheet_-_10_positioning_on_the_road_2_.pdf
Do you disagree with IAM too? That could be difficult for you.Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler.0 -
Keep to the left is the first rule of the road in the first highway code.The HC says 'keep to the left', not 'keep as far to the left as possible':
I had always assumed that this advice was far more basic than some people are giving it credit for. The HC was first published in 1931, before the first driving tests, and it was 18 pages of general advice to people who had never driven a motor vehicle before: the generally-accepted 'rules of the road'. Basically, if you meet someone on a road, in case you were thinking of passing them on the right, it is customary to pass them on the left, for everyone's benefit. The advice has remained in the HC ever since, because it is still relevant.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/The_Highway_Code_1931.djvu/page6-1016px-The_Highway_Code_1931.djvu.jpg
When published there would be very few lane markings.0 -
This is all getting a bit circular, but I don't think these two important points have been made specifically.
The Primary position is the default for safety reasons. The secondary position - over to the left - is the position you adopt if it is safe to do so. I spend the majority (say 90%) of my time in Secondary, although less so in busy urban areas. I'm not sure you're realising that Cyclecraft doesn't advise cyclists to take the lane at all times. It may not be clear to you without reading the book why cyclists take primary in a given situation, and it will of course be open to individual interpretation of risk (in the same way that as drivers we adjust our speed to conditions rather than driving to the limit at all times).
Cyclecraft (including the advice on Primary and Secondary positions) is endorsed by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (RoSPA), the UK Department for Transport (DfT), CTC (UK national cyclists' organisation), and the principal specialist organisations now delivering cycle training. It underpins Bikeability, the modern equivalent of the Cycling Proficiency test. It is hardly an arbitrary set of rules, although I agree there is not enough effort to make the driving population aware of the advice.
If Cyclecraft's advice on road positioning were incompatible with the Highway Code, it would surely not have received the DfT endorsement (and likely none of the others). Therefore, the interpretation of keep left is exactly as many have already explained - keep left of the centre of the road - no more, no less.
http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/book.html0 -
On the contrary, you are in the minority; I have been out and about and I have not seen a single cyclist in the so-called "primary position".OK, so let's look at that rule of the Highway Code. Let's look at it in its entirety. It says
So, your interpretation of that rule is that road users must keep to the left hand of their lane. The only exceptions to this rule according to the HC are - that you can only deviate from the left when you want to overtake, turn right, or pass vehicles or pedestrians in the road.
So, potholes are not an exception. Drain covers are not an exception. Pedestrians near the kerb are not an exception. Nearside junctions are not an exception. Slow moving cyclists are not an exception. Riding a motorcycle is not an exception. Driving according to Roadcraft is not an exception. Cycling according to the advice of government cycling tuition is not an exception. Driving to pass your driving test is not an exception.
Driving according to your interpretation of the HC rule 160 means that you will badly fail your IAM test, should you attempt it. You would also be a danger to other road users if you practiced what you preach.
I wonder if the penny is dropping. Is everyone else wrong, or is it your individual interpretation that's wrong?
Your argument fell apart totally when you exempted motorcyclists from your 'all encompassing keep left rule' because they could ride more quickly than other road users. That's not an exception in Rule 160.
You are arguing like an idiot, and I don't think you are an idiot. I think you have a bit of an inbuilt prejudice against cyclists (not as bad as some). I also think you have gone off an a tangent against cyclists using primary without fully grasping its reason and purpose, or the extent of its use.
You don't properly understand it. Have a read of the primary and secondary road positions and their purpose, and then come back to us with whatever attitude you still feel is appropriate, and we'll see if we can sort that for you.
You're underlining your prejudice I'm afraid. Learn what Cyclecraft and Bikeability (both Govt backed) have to say about primary and secondary, and you might just refresh your attitude.
If you're interested in the IAM, have a look at their thoughts on the cyclists right to use the primary position. They're all for it! http://road.cc/content/news/17033-cyclists-take-prime-position-says-iam-book
IAM also covers lane position quite well. No mention of keeping left here...http://www.niam.org.uk/media/6376/factsheet_-_10_positioning_on_the_road_2_.pdf
Do you disagree with IAM too? That could be difficult for you.
So it seems that rather than "everyone else", as you put it, there is only a subset of cyclists, even, who seem to think that these unofficial guidelines are in fact the laws of the road.
You repeatedly insist that the Highway Code's "keep to the left" is not complete, and come up with various embellishments, but earlier in the thread there were photographs posted from the HC clearly showing the cyclist keeping to the left, thereby confirming the intent of the manual.
Of course, when you start referring to people as idiots, the sense of your argument is dissipated, and for that I won't respond to you again.
You continue to drive/cycle contrary to the rues of the road if you wish, but don't blame other road users for your intransigence.0 -
On the contrary, you are in the minority; I have been out and about and I have not seen a single cyclist in the so-called "primary position".
So it seems that rather than "everyone else", as you put it, there is only a subset of cyclists, even, who seem to think that these unofficial guidelines are in fact the laws of the road.
You repeatedly insist that the Highway Code's "keep to the left" is not complete, and come up with various embellishments, but earlier in the thread there were photographs posted from the HC clearly showing the cyclist keeping to the left, thereby confirming the intent of the manual.
Of course, when you start referring to people as idiots, the sense of your argument is dissipated, and for that I won't respond to you again.
You continue to drive/cycle contrary to the rues of the road if you wish, but don't blame other road users for your intransigence.
Maybe you and Alterf need to meet up and swap areas.0 -
OK, so you adopt the secondary position 90% of the time and the "primary" position 10% of the time.This is all getting a bit circular, but I don't think these two important points have been made specifically.
The Primary position is the default for safety reasons. The secondary position - over to the left - is the position you adopt if it is safe to do so. I spend the majority (say 90%) of my time in Secondary, although less so in busy urban areas. I'm not sure you're realising that Cyclecraft doesn't advise cyclists to take the lane at all times. It may not be clear to you without reading the book why cyclists take primary in a given situation, and it will of course be open to individual interpretation of risk (in the same way that as drivers we adjust our speed to conditions rather than driving to the limit at all times).
Cyclecraft (including the advice on Primary and Secondary positions) is endorsed by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (RoSPA), the UK Department for Transport (DfT), CTC (UK national cyclists' organisation), and the principal specialist organisations now delivering cycle training. It underpins Bikeability, the modern equivalent of the Cycling Proficiency test. It is hardly an arbitrary set of rules, although I agree there is not enough effort to make the driving population aware of the advice.
If Cyclecraft's advice on road positioning were incompatible with the Highway Code, it would surely not have received the DfT endorsement (and likely none of the others). Therefore, the interpretation of keep left is exactly as many have already explained - keep left of the centre of the road - no more, no less.
http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/book.html
That kind of contradicts the normal meaning of the words "primary" and "secondary", but if that is what is being advocated, then it seems sensible to me, ie. you keep to the left unless you have to move out (eg. for the conditions stipulated in the Highway Code rule).
Cyclecraft claims to be a general guide for cyclist, but perhaps some people have latched onto a particular item (the "primary position") and now treat that as a mantra to which all other road users must accede, but Cyclecraft itself says that it "is not concerned with setting examples to others", so holding it up as a definition of what other road users must expect & do is in direct contravention of that.
But the point is that the other road users (the majority, including motorists and even cyclists) do not adhere to the words in that book, instead they are bound by the Highway Code, a knowledge of which is required for passing the motorbike, car, and lorry tests.
Attempting to elevate that book, written for profit by an individual, to the status of some new de-facto set of rules for the road is really not going to work; it will remain a niche publication. It is even the case that there are different factions in the cycling community who do or don't endorse it.
As far as making the driving (and the whole of the cycling community, for that matter) aware of its advice is to get the salient items included in the Highway Code; at that point they will become part of the rules of the road.0 -
If you are driving to the speed of the traffic, then you are not inconveniencing the other road users, so there isn't a particular issue regarding whether you keep to the left or not.RichardD1970 wrote: »And as previously stated, if a motorcyclist followed your interpretation of "The Rule" then they would fail their test despite your assertion that it is an "all-encompassing" rule that applies to everyone.
It's really quite academic anyway as, for example in the photo from the HC that you like so much, regardless of the cyclist's position, be it in the gutter, in the middle of the lane or on the right of the lane, if there is on coming traffic there is no safe overtake leaving the required space so the cars will be stuck behind regardless.
However, motorbikes driving close and shining their headlights in your mirrors is also bad mannered. (I guess we need another "Why do motorcyclists ..." thread for that though.)
In the case of the HC picture though, I would still look to give the cyclist plenty of room as I passed, but if they are in the middle of the lane rather than keeping left, it may be that there isn't space to the right to do so (eg. parked cars, etc.). So the cyclist in that picture is riding safely and considerately, and the motorist is overtaking likewise; that's the way it should be.0 -
However, motorbikes driving close and shining their headlights in your mirrors is also bad mannered.
So, you're saying that motorbikes should be unlit at night unless there are no vehicles in front of them?!
If a motorcyclist is to blame for having forward-pointing lights, then aren't you equally to blame for having rear-facing mirrors?
And what about when you drive at night? Presumably you shine your lights in other people's mirrors? Or do you just flagrantly disregard the law?!0 -
Perhaps we should look at all of the other rules of the road and add our own little embellishments too?
You repeatedly insist that the Highway Code's "keep to the left" is not complete, and come up with various embellishments, but earlier in the thread there were photographs posted from the HC clearly showing the cyclist keeping to the left, thereby confirming the intent of the manual.
You're embellishing the keep to the left rule with your interpretation of its purpose. Does the highway code insist road users keep to the left to allow faster vehicles to pass or is that something you've added?.If you are driving to the speed of the traffic, then you are not inconveniencing the other road users, so there isn't a particular issue regarding whether you keep to the left or not.
In the case of the HC picture though, I would still look to give the cyclist plenty of room as I passed, but if they are in the middle of the lane rather than keeping left, it may be that there isn't space to the right to do so (eg. parked cars, etc.). So the cyclist in that picture is riding safely and considerately, and the motorist is overtaking likewise; that's the way it should be.
The picture you keep referring to from the highway code shows the cyclist is in the secondary position.. As the picture is intended to show a car overtaking safely and the primary position is used to avoid unsafe overtaking having the cyclist in the primary position in the picture would be incorrect and defeat the object of the picture!.
There is an issue regarding whether you keep to the left or not regardless of your speed. It helps avoid head on collisions.0
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