Why do some cyclists use the entire lane, use fog horns, and flashing lights?????????

prowla

Norman_Castle wrote: »

Trying to be clever?. Impress us with your wisdom. Show that you understand the purpose of the primary and secondary position for cyclists.

The royal "us"?

But yes, I was playing with words and I do understand what you are saying; it's just that it contravenes the rules of the road.

Norman_Castle wrote: »

Viewing the highway from kerb to kerb, which rule in the highway code instructs road users to drive on the left?.

That's not what it says.

Here's another example from the Highway Code, clearly demonstrating that the intention is that cyclists keep to the left of the carriageway>

https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/road-junctions-170-to-183

Scroll down to 177 and observe the cyclist and car crossing the lights.



Further, in the cyclist rule 67 (https://www.gov.uk/rules-for-cyclists-59-to-82/overview-59-to-71), it says "look well ahead for obstructions in the road, such as drains, pot-holes and parked vehicles so that you do not have to swerve suddenly to avoid them." - evidently it expects you to be to the left, or you wouldn't have to move out around parked vehicles. (Of course, as it says, you should be moving out to the right in good time and not just swerving.)

And similarly the illustration for Rule 182 (https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/road-junctions-170-to-183) clearly shows the cyclist keeping to the left.


On the left-right question, look at rule 74 (https://www.gov.uk/rules-for-cyclists-59-to-82/road-junctions-72-to-75), which states: "If you are turning right, check the traffic to ensure it is safe, then signal and move to the centre of the road. Wait until there is a safe gap in the oncoming traffic and give a final look before completing the turn. It may be safer to wait on the left until there is a safe gap or to dismount and push your cycle across the road."; it clearly states that you should keep to the left if it's not safe to pull to the centre of the road, and even suggests temporarily converting yourself to a pedestrian if that's not safe - that plainly means the left and not just the middle of the left lane.

Even cyclists organizations accept that cycles should keep to the left; for instance http://ukcyclelaws.blogspot.co.uk/p/overtaking-cyclists.html goes to clarify the previous picture of a car overtaking a cycle and produces an overhead diagram which clearly shows the cycle keeping to the left, in accordance with the rules.



So, the above wordings and pictures clearly demonstrate that the Highway Code says and intends that "keep to the left" really means keep to the left, and not just in the left half of the road.

On the matter of cyclists advice on road positioning, it may be worthwhile looking at http://www.cyclescheme.co.uk/community/how-to/road-positioning, which discusses the cycling strategies and states: (i) "You never want to be closer than 50cm from the kerb. Often you'll be a metre out, " and (ii) "If you can keep up with the traffic, such as around town, it's safest to take the lane." (where "take the lane" is another phrase for "primary position"); now I agree with that completely, and those two statements are entirely consistent with my previous posts: (i) a normal urban road is perhaps 7 or 7.5 metres wide, so each lane is about 3.5 metres; therefore the advice that you may go out to 1 metre is about right, and (ii) it you are keeping up with the traffic then nobody should be looking to overtake you anyway, so it doesn't really matter if you are obeying the rules.

RichardD1970

prowla wrote: »

It is an all-encompassing rule, but it only becomes an issue if the vehicle which isn't obeying the rules of the road and keeping to the left is inconveniencing the other road users.

If the traffic is flowing freely, then they may be disobeying the rules, but it's not materially affecting anybody.

eg. On a 40 mph road, if you're going at 40, then I'll keep my distance behind you; but if you are going at 20, then you should allow me to pass, and I will do so when it's safe. You don't have to jump off the road (unless there is a cycle path, of course!), or bounce along through the drains, manhole covers, etc, but you should keep to the left. It's quite simple and courteous.

I was driving along a road today, and I noticed that the speed bumps and manhole covers were located along the centre of the lane; perhaps they should do that along all roads - that'd make the so-called "primary position" distinctly sub-optimal!

So it's an all encompassing rule that only needs to be followed by slower moving traffic which is in YOUR way :eek::rotfl:. What other rules can we pick and choose to follow?

Absolutely NO requirement to use cycle paths, most aren't fit for purpose anyway.

prowla

RichardD1970 wrote: »

So it's an all encompassing rule that only needs to be followed by slower moving traffic which is in YOUR way :eek::rotfl:. What other rules can we pick and choose to follow?

Absolutely NO requirement to use cycle paths, most aren't fit for purpose anyway.

It's an all-encompassing rule which which all road users should stick to, but from a practical perspective it only matters in any real sense if you are inconveniencing others. (I've had a couple of instances where I've had to drive slowly, and when I have, I've kept to the left and even stopped to allow traffic past - it's good manners.)

MY way is the rules of the road, as published in the Highway Code.

You are right that it is not a legal requirement to use cycle paths (if provided).

brat

Prowla, I said you're arguing like an idiot. I also said that I didn't think you were an idiot, merely arguing in ignorance of the facts. You've made a lot of false presumptions about primary and secondary cycling positions and when and why cyclists might use them I really think you should get your head around why assertive cyclists cycle this way before you start criticising,
Now you seem to be saying that the keep to the left rule only applies to slower vehicles.
That's not what you were saying at the start.

Norman_Castle

prowla wrote: »

That's not what it says.

Two questions, viewing the highway from kerb to kerb, which rule in the highway code instructs road users to drive on the left?.
If someone is driving on the right hand side of the road into oncoming traffic which rule from the highway code are they ignoring?

Norman_Castle

prowla wrote: »

It's an all-encompassing rule which which all road users should stick to, but from a practical perspective it only matters in any real sense if you are inconveniencing others..

Using the primary position only matters if you are inconveniencing others. If so you should move to the secondary position if its safe to do so. The primary concern for all road users should be safety, not convenience.

[Deleted User]

Norman_Castle wrote: »

Using the primary position only matters if you are inconveniencing others. If so you should move to the secondary position if its safe to do so. The primary concern for all road users should be safety, not convenience.

Or to put it another way, just how much inconvenience does it take to justify killing a cyclist?

"What you see in discourses about cycling is the absolute classic 1960s and 1970s social psychology of prejudice. It’s exactly those things that used to be done about minority ethnic groups and so on – the overgeneralisation of negative traits, under-representation of negative behaviours by one’s own group, that kind of thing. It’s just textbook prejudiced behaviour."

Dr Ian Walker
Senior Lecturer in Traffic and Transport Psychology
Bath University

RichardD1970

prowla wrote: »

It's an all-encompassing rule which which all road users should stick to

NO IT'S NOT. Motorbikes! :wall:

prowla wrote: »

The royal "us"?

But yes, I was playing with words and I do understand what you are saying; it's just that it contravenes the rules of the road.


That's not what it says.

Here's another example from the Highway Code, clearly demonstrating that the intention is that cyclists keep to the left of the carriageway>

https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/road-junctions-170-to-183

Scroll down to 177 and observe the cyclist and car crossing the lights.
[IMG]https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/static/hc c_rule_178_do_not_unnecessarily_encroach_on_the_cyclists_waiting_area.jpg[/IMG]


Further, in the cyclist rule 67 (https://www.gov.uk/rules-for-cyclists-59-to-82/overview-59-to-71), it says "look well ahead for obstructions in the road, such as drains, pot-holes and parked vehicles so that you do not have to swerve suddenly to avoid them." - evidently it expects you to be to the left, or you wouldn't have to move out around parked vehicles. (Of course, as it says, you should be moving out to the right in good time and not just swerving.)

And similarly the illustration for Rule 182 (https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/road-junctions-170-to-183) clearly shows the cyclist keeping to the left.


On the left-right question, look at rule 74 (https://www.gov.uk/rules-for-cyclists-59-to-82/road-junctions-72-to-75), which states: "If you are turning right, check the traffic to ensure it is safe, then signal and move to the centre of the road. Wait until there is a safe gap in the oncoming traffic and give a final look before completing the turn. It may be safer to wait on the left until there is a safe gap or to dismount and push your cycle across the road."; it clearly states that you should keep to the left if it's not safe to pull to the centre of the road, and even suggests temporarily converting yourself to a pedestrian if that's not safe - that plainly means the left and not just the middle of the left lane.

Even cyclists organizations accept that cycles should keep to the left; for instance http://ukcyclelaws.blogspot.co.uk/p/overtaking-cyclists.html goes to clarify the previous picture of a car overtaking a cycle and produces an overhead diagram which clearly shows the cycle keeping to the left, in accordance with the rules.



So, the above wordings and pictures clearly demonstrate that the Highway Code says and intends that "keep to the left" really means keep to the left, and not just in the left half of the road.

On the matter of cyclists advice on road positioning, it may be worthwhile looking at http://www.cyclescheme.co.uk/community/how-to/road-positioning, which discusses the cycling strategies and states: (i) "You never want to be closer than 50cm from the kerb. Often you'll be a metre out, " and (ii) "If you can keep up with the traffic, such as around town, it's safest to take the lane." (where "take the lane" is another phrase for "primary position"); now I agree with that completely, and those two statements are entirely consistent with my previous posts: (i) a normal urban road is perhaps 7 or 7.5 metres wide, so each lane is about 3.5 metres; therefore the advice that you may go out to 1 metre is about right, and (ii) it you are keeping up with the traffic then nobody should be looking to overtake you anyway, so it doesn't really matter if you are obeying the rules.

Of course, the pictures shown are to instruct the car drivers on how to safely overtake a cyclist riding in the Secondary position, not on how or where the cyclist should be riding.

No point showing how to overtake a cyclist in the Primary position as that is the purpose of the Primary position; to stop an unsafe overtake.

You seem to feel that people are advocating that a cyclist should ride in the Primary position at all times, when no sensible cyclist would advocate this and would normally, all things being safe, use the Secondary position as the norm.

You have already acknowledged that the Primary position can and should be used in certain circumstances so fail to see why this "discussion" is still ongoing?

prowla

Norman_Castle wrote: »

Using the primary position only matters if you are inconveniencing others. If so you should move to the secondary position if its safe to do so. The primary concern for all road users should be safety, not convenience.

The Highway Code says you should keep left and you may move out to go around obstacles, etc.

Translating that into cyclespeak, you should normally be in the "secondary position", and only "take the lane" / move to the "primary position" when you need to.

An earlier cyclists' post alluded to that when they said they spend 90% of their time in the "secondary" position.

prowla

RichardD1970 wrote: »

NO IT'S NOT. Motorbikes! :wall:

As I've said, if the vehicle is moving with the flow of traffic, or at the speed limit, then nobody behind has any reason to want to get past them. This is about cyclists, but you would always open a motorbikes thread...

RichardD1970 wrote: »

Of course, the pictures shown are to instruct the car drivers on how to safely overtake a cyclist riding in the Secondary position, not on how or where the cyclist should be riding.

No point showing how to overtake a cyclist in the Primary position as that is the purpose of the Primary position; to stop an unsafe overtake.

You seem to feel that people are advocating that a cyclist should ride in the Primary position at all times, when no sensible cyclist would advocate this and would normally, all things being safe, use the Secondary position as the norm.

You have already acknowledged that the Primary position can and should be used in certain circumstances so fail to see why this "discussion" is still ongoing?

The Highway Code says that the rules apply to cyclists too, therefore the cyclists position in the pictures applies.

Please find a single mention or picture of a cyclist in the "primary position" in the Highway Code.

Yes, I have the impression that (some) cyclists are indeed advocating that, especially when they are arguing about that "keep to the left" doesn't mean you should keep to the left, and so-on.